LCK Two

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
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Chuma
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Re: LCK Two

Post by Chuma »

jal wrote:
Chuma wrote:For one example, I'm still baffled by my discovery that English is one of very few languages (perhaps even the only one) which has words for "he" and "she", but does not have gender on nouns.
You should do some research. Although there seems to be a positive correlation, these two maps show that English is far from the only one (and in fact, WALS clasifies English as having a sex-based gender system, although I'm not sure on what grounds).
Combining those two features shows that there are no less than 5 languages which have no gender but still distinguish gender in pronouns. It that what you are referring to?

That's a little peculiar tho, since in chapter 30, they write
Most scholars working on agreement include the control of anaphoric pronouns by their antecedent (the girl ... she ) as part of agreement. If this is accepted, as we do here, then languages in which free pronouns present the only evidence for gender will be counted as having a gender system. [...] Including them, however, makes little difference to the overall picture, since they are rare (the best known example is English, which is typologically unusual in this respect)
That is, a language which distinguishes gender in pronouns should, according to this definition, be said to have gender (which answers your question about why English is considered as having a sex-based gender system). With that in mind, I don't see how the aforementioned definition could be correct - it might just be that other contributors have seen things differently, and regarded systems similar to the English one as not having gender.

Although there are a few other languages which, like English, distinguish gender only in pronouns, I haven't found any other example where this is done in a purely sex-based system; they might for example have animate vs. inanimate pronouns.

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dhok
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Re: LCK Two

Post by dhok »

You should issue a limited-edition box set of LCKs 1 and 2 plus the PCK...

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Rodlox »

dhokarena56 wrote:You should issue a limited-edition box set of LCKs 1 and 2 plus the PCK...
autographed?
MadBrain is a genius.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Wattmann »

Rodlox wrote:
dhokarena56 wrote:You should issue a limited-edition box set of LCKs 1 and 2 plus the PCK...
autographed?
Indeed
Warning: Recovering bilingual, attempting trilinguaility. Knowledge of French left behind in childhood. Currently repairing bilinguality. Repair stalled. Above content may be a touch off.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Jetboy »

One thing I can think to add is more in depth on different types of poetry, which was only skimmed over in the original LCK.
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jal
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Re: LCK Two

Post by jal »

Chuma wrote:That's a little peculiar tho
It indeed is, I agree.
Although there are a few other languages which, like English, distinguish gender only in pronouns, I haven't found any other example where this is done in a purely sex-based system; they might for example have animate vs. inanimate pronouns.
Though (modern standard) Dutch has a two-way gender system, it is basically a random distinction, and definitely not sex-based, nor was it historically, cf. German. However German pronouns are more strictly noun-gender based, not sex-based as they are in Dutch (e.g. in Dutch, though "girl" has "het" gender, it is referred to with a female pronoun, vs. German that refers to it with a "male" pronoun, at least when possessives are concerned). Iirc, Scandinavian languages have about the same distinction and use as Dutch has.


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Chuma
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Re: LCK Two

Post by Chuma »

I'm not sure what you mean by not sex-based; the German system certainly is. But that's all irrelevant anyway, since neither of those languages distinguish gender only in pronouns.

I don't know any Dutch, but in Swedish, there is a he/she distinction which is completely semantic, and independent of the indefinite article. We could easily argue that "gender" only refers to the property of the word which determines the article, and that the pronouns are independent of grammatical gender. And in that case we could argue that the he/she distinction in English is also not a matter of grammatical gender, and therefore English does not have grammatical gender. But that's exactly what WALS is talking about: That wouldn't really affect the statistics, since English is one of the few, perhaps the only, language which would need to be reclassified with this approach.

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jal
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Re: LCK Two

Post by jal »

Chuma wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by not sex-based; the German system certainly is.
I mean that German grammatical gender does not need to coincide with actual gender. Though of course it does to a large extent.


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Re: LCK Two

Post by Sortsdam »

Maybe someone has already said it, but I think that the Word Creation section could be improved. I feel like it simply goes over the Speedtalk meme, and stops after that. It would be really cool to see any actual methods or patterns for word creation.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by zompist »

In case anyone missed it, see this post. Gist: LCK2 draft is done and I need a few readers. E-mail me (don't respond here, I'm going to need an e-mail address).

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Re: LCK Two

Post by ayyub »

Wattmann wrote:
Rodlox wrote:
dhokarena56 wrote:You should issue a limited-edition box set of LCKs 1 and 2 plus the PCK...
autographed?
Indeed
I'd buy it.
Ulrike Meinhof wrote:The merger is between /8/ and /9/, merging into /8/. Seeing as they're just one number apart, that's not too strange.

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ayyub
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Re: LCK Two

Post by ayyub »

Wattmann wrote:
Rodlox wrote:
dhokarena56 wrote:You should issue a limited-edition box set of LCKs 1 and 2 plus the PCK...
autographed?
Indeed
I'd buy it.
Ulrike Meinhof wrote:The merger is between /8/ and /9/, merging into /8/. Seeing as they're just one number apart, that's not too strange.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Necromancy is banned under the Imperial Regulatory Act of Wizardry.
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Pole, the
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Re: LCK Two

Post by Pole, the »

Elector Dark wrote:Necromancy is banned under the Imperial Regulatory Act of Wizardry.
Nonsense.
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Feles wrote:
Elector Dark wrote:Necromancy is banned under the Imperial Regulatory Act of Wizardry.
Nonsense.
Republican scum.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Rodlox »

Elector Dark wrote:Necromancy is banned under the Imperial Regulatory Act of Wizardry.
the LCK(2) does not fall under the provisions of the necromantic or other portions of the Act.
MadBrain is a genius.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Mornche Geddick »

IT'S HERE!

I wonder if I was the first to order?

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Re: LCK Two

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zompist
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Re: LCK Two

Post by zompist »

Heh, you beat me to the announcement. :) The regular Amazon page for the print version isn't up yet, but the link above gets you the same thing.

If you prefer Kindle, here's the link to that.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by finlay »

Nice. I'll try and buy it later once i've checked exactly how much money i have in my uk account (i don't have a card in japan.... I suppose the other option is getting a gift card here but it probably isn't on amazon.co.jp...i don't think they've released the kindle in japan yet...)

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Xephyr »

So... what font did you end up using?
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
The Gospel of Thomas

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Ser
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Re: LCK Two

Post by Ser »

The cover... I know you love those kinds of graphics, looking at the games you lovingly comment in your "E-Z rant page" blog... but I really don't. Old school. I think the abstract theme of the LCK was better.

And I'd definitely want to know what font you ended up using.

I also wonder if I should wait for a second edition... I kinda regret buying the LCK right when it had just been published, considering a second edition with a little extra content (I see it has more pages anyway) and many corrections was eventually released afterwards too.

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Re: LCK Two

Post by Xephyr »

I'm fine as long as it's the same format and dimensions as the previous books in the series. Anyone else remember this piece of shit?
Image

Yeah... I know you do.
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
The Gospel of Thomas

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Re: LCK Two

Post by zompist »

I went with Libertine. It looks nice in print, and the typographically inclined will appreciate all the special characters being in the same font.

Format is the same as before, trade paperback size.

I'm sorry about 1.0 LCK errors, but that's why I had ten people read it instead of one this time...

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Re: LCK Two

Post by kaleissin »

Wattmann wrote:
Chargone wrote: heck, even trying to FIND grammars is a bit of a mission in and of itself, it seems. let alone affordable ones.
There are things such as affordable grammars??
WHAT YEAR IS THIS?
I was planning to counter with "A Grammar of Tariana", which I got for $30-ish when it was new (paperback), but now I see it has become as silly expensive as the rest of them. I do believe Tariana to be the best example of a natlang kitchen sink language around.

What we need is a grammar-spotter-league: A vast conspiracy of eager beavers that keep an eye on specific publishers' sites so as to alert the horde whenever a new grammar is about to be published, or is on sale.

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