Ukrainian dying out among young Ukrainians?

[adder]

I've started studying another subject recently and to my surprise something like 25% of a quite small group that I had to join (I joined during the second semester because there were too few applications to start a new year, sadly) are Ukrainians.

I learnt Ukrainian for some time. I picked it up because I like how Ukrainian sounds, it's very harmonious. I'm Polish and from what I've heard people in West Ukraine prefer Poles to speak Polish than Russian even though they would understand it much better. But it seems right only for the older generation. All people studying with me come from Western cities like Lutsk, Rivne, or Kovel. I managed to learn Ukrainian so I can understand it when it's spoken. Ukrainian has a lot of vocabulary coming from Polish and words are just simply adjusted to Ukrainian orthography and inflection rules, thus it's definitely one of the Slavic languages that are very similar to Polish (let's leave different writing systems). Also, there are some unique consonants that Polish and Ukrainian share and they're not present in Russian (like /d͡ʐ/ for instance).

I'm older than most of these people not counting 2 men older than me, so the average is 17-19 among these Ukrainians, I guess, I'm 22. They talk in Russian! I thought it had been a torment for Ukrainians to be forced to learn Russian in schools even after dissolution of the USSR and now when it's not obligatory, young people prefer to speak Russian rather than Ukrainian. I was aware of this happening in East Ukraine, Crimea, and some other regions but West Ukraine was always "Ukrainian" for me. They use a lot of Russian vocabulary, e.g. the verb <понимать> instead of Ukrainian <розуміти> for "to understand" or <любить> instead of <кохати> for "to love". At first I was very excited to be able to talk to Ukrainian girls in Ukrainian and maybe improve my skills (and, well, Ukrainian girls are very very pretty ). Now I see I can't communicate in the language they speak.

Does anyone know to what extent this phenomenon is spread in West Ukraine? This is the first step for Ukrainian to die out completely eventually, something what is happening in Belarus where Belarusian is used very rarely.

[Legion]

Quoting wikipedia:

"In the 2001 census, 67.5% of the country population named Ukrainian as their native language (a 2.8% increase from 1989), while 29.6% named Russian (a 3.2% decrease). It should be noted, though, that for many Ukrainians (of various ethnic descent), the term native language may not necessarily associate with the language they use more frequently. The overwhelming majority of ethnic Ukrainians consider the Ukrainian language native, including those who often speak Russian. According to the official 2001 census data approximately 75% of Kiev's population responded "Ukrainian" to the native language (ridna mova) census question, and roughly 25% responded "Russian". On the other hand, when the question "What language do you use in everyday life?" was asked in the sociological survey, the Kievans' answers were distributed as follows: "mostly Russian": 52%, "both Russian and Ukrainian in equal measure": 32%, "mostly Ukrainian": 14%, "exclusively Ukrainian": 4.3%."

[Wattmann]

Russian is something as corrosive as Tiberium, and we Noddies spread the word.

On a more serious note, that's extremely horrible, so horrid I couldn't concieve it - except, as with the genocides in DRKongo, it's actually happening.

[Legion]

Russian is something as corrosive as Tiberium, and we Noddies spread the word.

On a more serious note, that's extremely horrible, so horrid I couldn't concieve it - except, as with the genocides in DRKongo, it's actually happening.

You just compared voluntary language shift to events that have left millions of people dead.

my

god

[Drydic]

I can only speculate that he was thinking of Stalin's famines in the Ukraine in the 20s & 30s, at least with that it makes SOME sense.



Also, Legion, get back in irc. now.

[Legion]

No.

[adder]

I read the article on wikipedia. Still, I must say that Kyiv is a totally different case from western Ukraine. I just have trouble collating blue-yellow fences, roofs, etc. in the countryside with choosing Russian as an every day language over the mother tongue. Really, as I travelled through roads and looked outside the car I saw how much people want to stress that they're Ukrainians even if they're poor and can paint just a part of something in national colours.

I had another explanation suggested. If people are bilingual and they know Russian isn't obligatory in Poland for a very long time now, they choose to use it as Ukrainian might be much easier understood by Poles. But that's rather doubtful for me although there's a marked line between Polish students and Ukrainian students which is really sad. I noticed that the younger generation is, the fewer people have values and are able to empathise with other people.

Well, the best way to find out will definitely be talking to them although I have problems getting into groups of people especially if they have known one another for some time and I'm a new one. I'll try talking to some girl starting with a Ukrainian greeting.

If a situation like this continues, then Ukrainian is certainly on a way to produce various mixes with Russian instead of regional dialects.

[linguoboy]

I read the article on wikipedia. Still, I must say that Kyiv is a totally different case from western Ukraine. I just have trouble collating blue-yellow fences, roofs, etc. in the countryside with choosing Russian as an every day language over the mother tongue. Really, as I travelled through roads and looked outside the car I saw how much people want to stress that they're Ukrainians even if they're poor and can paint just a part of something in national colours.

I've seen this before elsewhere. In Ireland, for instance, it's common practice for citizenry to refer to Irish as their "native language" even though less than 2% of the population was raised in an Irish-speaking household. Everyone has some knowledge of it, and over a third of the population claim to speak it at least occasionally, but any suggestion that those who speak English exclusively are in any way less proud of being Irish would go over very badly indeed.

The contrast is even starker in the States, where knowledge of Irish among those who identify as "Irish-Americans" is virtually nil beyond the phrases "sláinte" and "póg mo thóin". Yet point this out to one of them (especially someone who's asked you for help getting an Irish-language tattoo!) and you can expect an aggressively defensive reaction. The degree of nationalistic feeling and the depth of cultural knowledge are very poorly correlated indeed.

[Wattmann]

Russian is something as corrosive as Tiberium, and we Noddies spread the word.

On a more serious note, that's extremely horrible, so horrid I couldn't concieve it - except, as with the genocides in DRKongo, it's actually happening.

You just compared voluntary language shift to events that have left millions of people dead.

my

god

I can only speculate that he was thinking of Stalin's famines in the Ukraine in the 20s & 30s, at least with that it makes SOME sense.

Partly what DG said, and the fact that the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa - you are irreversably wiping away thousands of years of evolution - it's like species and culture extinction...

[linguoboy]

Partly what DG said, and the fact that the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa - you are irreversably wiping away thousands of years of evolution - it's like species and culture extinction...

I don't think "horrifying" is the word for what I feel when I hear of extinctions, be they cultural, linguistic, or biological. I see them as being part of the natural order of things in a way that mass rape, torture, and execution are not.

[Legion]

the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa

Then your moral compass is off.

[Wattmann]

Partly what DG said, and the fact that the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa - you are irreversably wiping away thousands of years of evolution - it's like species and culture extinction...

I don't think "horrifying" is the word for what I feel when I hear of extinctions, be they cultural, linguistic, or biological. I see them as being part of the natural order of things in a way that mass rape, torture, and execution are not.

But, is that evolution?
This shift isn't - and, Legion, I didn't specifiy how horrified I am, you know? My political compass is leaning rightwards a bit, true, but I'm a philanthrope, not an ass-bad (not badass, ass-bad) Ser Shrugitoff

[linguoboy]

Partly what DG said, and the fact that the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa - you are irreversably wiping away thousands of years of evolution - it's like species and culture extinction...

I don't think "horrifying" is the word for what I feel when I hear of extinctions, be they cultural, linguistic, or biological. I see them as being part of the natural order of things in a way that mass rape, torture, and execution are not.

But, is that evolution?

Is what "evolution"? Mass die-offs? Certainly. Human-engineered massacres? That's arguable. In any case, we know we have the ability to do things differently because, in general, we have. It's what makes these events horrifying and tragic rather than simply unfortunate.

[Curlyjimsam]

Partly what DG said, and the fact that the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa - you are irreversably wiping away thousands of years of evolution - it's like species and culture extinction...

Given that Ukrainian and Russian have been "separate languages" for centuries rather than millennia, and presumably even during that period have been subject to some fairly intense contact, talking about "thousands of years of evolution" may not be terribly relevant in this case.

[Rui]

Partly what DG said, and the fact that the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa - you are irreversably wiping away thousands of years of evolution - it's like species and culture extinction...

I don't think "horrifying" is the word for what I feel when I hear of extinctions, be they cultural, linguistic, or biological. I see them as being part of the natural order of things in a way that mass rape, torture, and execution are not.

But, is that evolution?

Have you ever heard of the phrase "natural selection"? As in a completely natural, GRADUAL process, and not a systematic murdering of the unfit.

Sure it's sad that cultures are losing their languages and stuff, but that will happen regardless of what anyone does. Language preservationists are doing what they do, I think, in order to save records of the languages, not necessarily the language itself.

Genocides and stuff are...not examples of natural selection...

[Wattmann]

Partly what DG said, and the fact that the extinction of languages is something I consider at least half as horrifying as the events that are transpiring in Subsaharan tropical Africa - you are irreversably wiping away thousands of years of evolution - it's like species and culture extinction...

Given that Ukrainian and Russian have been "separate languages" for centuries rather than millennia, and presumably even during that period have been subject to some fairly intense contact, talking about "thousands of years of evolution" may not be terribly relevant in this case.

Doesn't mean that Urainian is the only victim - Gaelic languages, per example, or the dialects of Greek in Asia Minor, or, even, Basque (yes, it's been spreading in the recent years, but under Franco's rule, it was shrinking due to the campaign against non-Spanish languages)

[adder]

This is a complete negation of the attitude of Ukrainians who hate when people call them Russians and hate when people say Ukraine is an artificially created country. Sure, they don't speak Russian like Russians, i.e. it sounds "lighter" but still you can't call it a variation of Ukrainian by no means.

It's funny though because they fought for independence so much in both World Wars but eventually Ukraine was ruled by Russia for so many years and gained independence not until 1990. I know during the period of Russian rule there were a lot of migrations (natural and forced) but anyway according to censuses Ukrainians make up over 75% of population in Ukraine and definitely there are more Ukrainians in the west than in the east by %.

Also, it's strange that officially the country organize various campaigns for people to manifest their nationality, mother tongue included. Maybe in reality it doesn't reach too many people. Another thing is education. If Russian is no longer obligatory in schools and Ukraine is an independent country with Ukrainian being the official language (not counting Russian for Crimea), subjects should be taught in Ukrainian, I'm guessing. But maybe it's also only official and subjects like maths, chemistry, etc. are taught in Russian by teachers who obviously know Russian. I don't understand it. If I were in a similar situation, I would prefer to speak my true mother tongue. And Ukrainian is a fully developed language so different from Russian.

Now I wonder why I learnt Ukrainian (not that I'm a pro but I can handle a conversation in the language). I thought I would be welcomed better in Ukraine speaking Ukrainian rather than Russian. It seems I was so wrong. If I had learnt Russian instead, I could communicate easily not only in Ukraine but also in the majority of post-Soviet republics, not to mention Russia...

[Astraios]

If I had learnt Russian instead, I could communicate easily not only in Ukraine but also in the majority of post-Soviet republics, not to mention Russia...

And there's your answer for why they prefer Russian.

[linguoboy]

If I had learnt Russian instead, I could communicate easily not only in Ukraine but also in the majority of post-Soviet republics, not to mention Russia...

And there's your answer for why they prefer Russian.

Is it really? Are native Ukrainian-speakers in Western Ukraine really that interested in talking to people "in the majority of post-Soviet republics"?

[Astraios]

Not to mention Russia.

[Whimemsz]

Wattmann...in genocide and wars, human beings die. By the thousands or millions. In "language death", usually no one dies (except in cases where the language is dying because its speakers are being killed, in which case the greater concern needs to be stopping the slaughter anyway). And it's very often voluntary (as in this case). If you think the two are morally equivalent, then Legion is right that you have a really, really fucked up moral compass. That doesn't mean you shouldn't care about language death and other forms of cultural homogenization, but to equate it with the suffering and death of millions of people is a real denial of what those people are actually suffering.

[Wattmann]

If you think the two are morally equivalent

I never said that.
GODS I'm like Göring now =/

[Legion]

GODS I'm like Göring now =/

Well, after that sentence, certainly (self-fulfilling prophecy???)

[Wattmann]

GODS I'm like Göring now =/

Well, after that sentence, certainly (self-fulfilling prophecy???)

I should shut up

[Cathbad]

I should shut up

Yes, yes you should.

---

I read the article on wikipedia. Still, I must say that Kyiv is a totally different case from western Ukraine. I just have trouble collating blue-yellow fences, roofs, etc. in the countryside with choosing Russian as an every day language over the mother tongue. Really, as I travelled through roads and looked outside the car I saw how much people want to stress that they're Ukrainians even if they're poor and can paint just a part of something in national colours.

Because yes, you make very conscious and determined choices when you're a teenager...

Seriously though, language shift in this way isn't really uncommon. I know absolutely nothing about the sociolinguistic situation in Ukraine, but the "status vs. solidarity" tension quite commonly ends up in something like this, with the younger generations abandoning use of their Distinctive National Tongue because it no longer matters as much to distinguish themselves from others:

I thought it had been a torment for Ukrainians to be forced to learn Russian in schools even after dissolution of the USSR and now when it's not obligatory, young people prefer to speak Russian rather than Ukrainian.

... precisely because there is no longer as much at stake in Retaining Ukrainian. In other words, if speaking Russian is no longer a torment (since you're not forced to), why not do it?