Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Pthagnar »

alternatively, the worldview might be worth preserving if it is e.g.good

the first generation has authority because they are grandparents. are you really so disdainful of what ypur grandparents think that "fuck you -- I WILL THIS FOR ME AND MY DESCENDANTS!" is a tidy response to you?

Gray Richardson
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Gray Richardson »

Hakaku wrote:Sure, but awareness on what? That languages are dissappearing?
Yes.
Hakaku wrote:Currently, their website is user-driven, so none of the information is actually generated or backed by them. It's just a bunch of user submitted Youtube videos, some ressources that aren't verified or filtered (a lot of pointless "sample" documents too).
The website has only been up for 2 days. I imagine it will grow and become more useful with time. Remember: Rome was not built in a day.
Hakaku wrote:This assumes they're putting their money into documenting any of these languages, which does not appear to be the case. Their whole website just says that they're an alliance, and that the project is collaborative.
I do assume that they are putting money into the project. I assume also that this will become more apparent with time.
Hakaku wrote:The current Google project jacks information from Wikipedia (cf. all the incorrect geo-coordinates are due to redirects on Wikipedia), while just acting as a portal to non-reviewed user-submitted content. It's the exact same concept as Wikipedia, just more restrictive in that it's nothing more than a pretty map. Google does not have any more "expertise" in acting as a portal to further research than Wikipedia does. Perhaps the only advantage is that Google owns Youtube, which allows it to throw up a better gallery of audio-visual content.
I do not find it suprising that they would point to or curate info from Wikipedia in that the whole point of a portal is to point to other sites that might be useful. If you read their home page they also curate information provided by the Catalogue of Endangered Languages (ELCat), produced by the University of Hawai'i at Manoa and The Institute for Language Information and Technology (The Linguist List) at Eastern Michigan University.
Hakaku wrote:On what scale? What exactly is Google doing that's different from Wikipedia, the LinguistList, or the Linguasphere Observatory? It's a map, a basic portal, and a lot of pretty for nothing.
I disagree with your assertion of "nothing." Clearly they are attempting something. However, if you don't like it, then simply don't use it. No need to be so negative and belittling about other people's efforts! Perhaps you do not feel sentimental or curious about the loss of such languages. But for me, curiosity and nostalgia are certainly major motivators. I don't fault native language speakers for learning other languages that may be more useful to them. But it would be nice to document everything we can of those tongues before they are forgotten or their last speakers die off. That way, if future generations want to revive the language, they will have resources to do so. Or if linguists or conlangers want to study and find examples of interesting variations in grammar or phonetics of exotic languages, it would be nice to preserve that knowledge for those who have a use for it.

From their website, Google has this to say about the project: "With the Endangered Languages Project, Google puts its technology at the service of the organizations and individuals working to confront the language endangerment by documenting, preserving and teaching them. Through this website, users can not only access the most up to date and comprehensive information on endangered languages as well as samples being provided by partners, but also play an active role in putting their languages online by submitting information or samples in the form of text, audio or video files. In addition, users will be able to share best practices and case studies through a knowledge sharing section and through joining relevant Google Groups.

Google oversaw the development and launch of this project, but the long term goal is for it to be led by true experts in the field of language preservation. As such, oversight of the project will soon transition to First Peoples' Cultural Council and The Institute for Language Information and Technology (The Linguist List) at Eastern Michigan University in coordination with the Advisory Committee."

It also mentions that there's a form you can fill out if you have feedback about the website:
https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/sp ... N3Atanc6MA

So Hakaku, if you have critiques or suggestions you would like to share with them, I encourage you to give your constructive criticism via the provided form.

User avatar
Terra
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 10:01 am

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Terra »

the first generation has authority because they are grandparents. are you really so disdainful of what ypur grandparents think that "fuck you -- I WILL THIS FOR ME AND MY DESCENDANTS!" is a tidy response to you?
Yes, actually, though I'll only get annoyed about it when they try to push it. I'm nowhere near as rude as your sentence.
alternatively, the worldview might be worth preserving if it is e.g.good
In that case, when, for example, all the Gumbaynggirr speakers start speaking English and give up their own language, we (the human race as a whole) lose Gumbaynggirr as a piece of cultural heritage, but we gain nothing.
Why is a cultural heritage considered inherently valuable?

Here's some excerpts from http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/ ... hotography :
Melodie George-Moore was discouraged from speaking her tribal language while growing up. “Why learn Hupa? Everyone who speaks it is dead.” But she sensed her destiny was tied to learning the Hupa language, and so she has learned it well enough to fulfill her role as a medicine woman. Moore believes that answers to the troubles faced by her tribe may be found in the stories of her ancestors.
Caleen Sisk is the spiritual leader and the tribal chief of the Winnemem Wintu tribe—and a last speaker of the language that sustains her people’s identity. For a hundred years, the tribe has been fighting with the U.S. government over its territory along the McCloud River, abutting Mount Shasta, which they consider their birthplace. Loss of land and loss of language are connected, says Sisk. “This land is our church.”
Ai-Xaan Oorzhak throat sings and plays the igil, or horse-head fiddle, with bow techniques like “make horse walk.” Singers use the term “air horse” to describe the spiritual depths they draw from to produce the harmonic sounds.
A Tuvan shaman cleanses the house of a deceased relative’s spirit using smoke from burning juniper to chase away darkness. The incense fills the room as the family ask the spirits of hearth and home to protect them.
A marriage is not recognized until after the ritual slaughter of a mithan, a type of cattle, when its liver can be read. The verdict: A small spot might signal an accident in the couple’s future but otherwise a happy life.
I see plenty praise for spirituality, that is, superstition. I do not see why its considered valuable.
The Tuvans slaughter sheep by making a slit in the animal’s chest, inserting a hand, and severing the main artery that leads to the heart. The term khoj özeeri conveys both the humane attitude of this method of slaughter as well as the skill that ensures that
no blood is spilled.
Butchering animals is barbarous!, unless minorities are doing it!

User avatar
installer_swan
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Hic
Contact:

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by installer_swan »

Terra wrote:Why is a cultural heritage considered inherently valuable?
I agree that culture is always in flux anyway, and trying to preserve dying cultures when the "inheritors"/"descendants" are willingly abandoning is an activity which needs to be justified. However, I think the process of having a historical record is in itself a worthy enough goal, I'd say. There is more to be gained than just that, though, as others have already pointed out.
Terra wrote:I see plenty praise for spirituality, that is, superstition. I do not see why its considered valuable.
I agree, the part about the shamans and entrail reading is quite stupid. However, there are a lot of valuable and highly efficient practices that do bear learning and reproduction, especially now that we are just beginning to realise the importance of sustainable and renewable resources and practices. Unfortunately, there aren't as many scientists/engineers working on the documentation of these dying cultures so more often than not we end up collecting not their science/experience but their superstition and religion (which has some value as a documentation of historical record, but persisting in continuing to literally believe in and perpetuate them is at best a fruitless and stupid task)
Terra wrote:Butchering animals is barbarous!, unless minorities are doing it!
I agree, but then western society at large (or actually most of the world nowadays) hardly has a moral highground to talk about butchering animals, but that's just tu quoque.
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-

Turtlehead
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 11:06 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Turtlehead »

Ubercanofwormsthread
installer_swan wrote:
Terra wrote:Why is a cultural heritage considered inherently valuable?
I agree that culture is always in flux anyway, and trying to preserve dying cultures when the "inheritors"/"descendants" are willingly abandoning is an activity which needs to be justified. However, I think the process of having a historical record is in itself a worthy enough goal, I'd say. There is more to be gained than just that, though, as others have already pointed out.
Could become a hobby one day, eventually we will need hobbies to fill our days when the words of Revelation become true.
Terra wrote:I see plenty praise for spirituality, that is, superstition. I do not see why its considered valuable.
I agree, the part about the shamans and entrail reading is quite stupid. However, there are a lot of valuable and highly efficient practices that do bear learning and reproduction, especially now that we are just beginning to realise the importance of sustainable and renewable resources and practices. Unfortunately, there aren't as many scientists/engineers working on the documentation of these dying cultures so more often than not we end up collecting not their science/experience but their superstition and religion (which has some value as a documentation of historical record, but persisting in continuing to literally believe in and perpetuate them is at best a fruitless and stupid task)
Practical tech good, though some customs could have practical use, though being religion, seems impractical to a non-believer.
Terra wrote:Butchering animals is barbarous!, unless minorities are doing it!
I agree, but then western society at large (or actually most of the world nowadays) hardly has a moral highground to talk about butchering animals, but that's just tu quoque.
Vegans hold the moral high ground in this argument.
Gray Richardson wrote:
Hakaku wrote:Sure, but awareness on what? That languages are dissappearing?
Yes.
Hakaku wrote:Currently, their website is user-driven, so none of the information is actually generated or backed by them. It's just a bunch of user submitted Youtube videos, some ressources that aren't verified or filtered (a lot of pointless "sample" documents too).
The website has only been up for 2 days. I imagine it will grow and become more useful with time. Remember: Rome was not built in a day.
Hakaku wrote:This assumes they're putting their money into documenting any of these languages, which does not appear to be the case. Their whole website just says that they're an alliance, and that the project is collaborative.
I do assume that they are putting money into the project. I assume also that this will become more apparent with time.
Hakaku wrote:The current Google project jacks information from Wikipedia (cf. all the incorrect geo-coordinates are due to redirects on Wikipedia), while just acting as a portal to non-reviewed user-submitted content. It's the exact same concept as Wikipedia, just more restrictive in that it's nothing more than a pretty map. Google does not have any more "expertise" in acting as a portal to further research than Wikipedia does. Perhaps the only advantage is that Google owns Youtube, which allows it to throw up a better gallery of audio-visual content.
I do not find it suprising that they would point to or curate info from Wikipedia in that the whole point of a portal is to point to other sites that might be useful. If you read their home page they also curate information provided by the Catalogue of Endangered Languages (ELCat), produced by the University of Hawai'i at Manoa and The Institute for Language Information and Technology (The Linguist List) at Eastern Michigan University.
Hakaku wrote:On what scale? What exactly is Google doing that's different from Wikipedia, the LinguistList, or the Linguasphere Observatory? It's a map, a basic portal, and a lot of pretty for nothing.
I disagree with your assertion of "nothing." Clearly they are attempting something. However, if you don't like it, then simply don't use it. No need to be so negative and belittling about other people's efforts! Perhaps you do not feel sentimental or curious about the loss of such languages. But for me, curiosity and nostalgia are certainly major motivators. I don't fault native language speakers for learning other languages that may be more useful to them. But it would be nice to document everything we can of those tongues before they are forgotten or their last speakers die off. That way, if future generations want to revive the language, they will have resources to do so. Or if linguists or conlangers want to study and find examples of interesting variations in grammar or phonetics of exotic languages, it would be nice to preserve that knowledge for those who have a use for it.

From their website, Google has this to say about the project: "With the Endangered Languages Project, Google puts its technology at the service of the organizations and individuals working to confront the language endangerment by documenting, preserving and teaching them. Through this website, users can not only access the most up to date and comprehensive information on endangered languages as well as samples being provided by partners, but also play an active role in putting their languages online by submitting information or samples in the form of text, audio or video files. In addition, users will be able to share best practices and case studies through a knowledge sharing section and through joining relevant Google Groups.

Google oversaw the development and launch of this project, but the long term goal is for it to be led by true experts in the field of language preservation. As such, oversight of the project will soon transition to First Peoples' Cultural Council and The Institute for Language Information and Technology (The Linguist List) at Eastern Michigan University in coordination with the Advisory Committee."

It also mentions that there's a form you can fill out if you have feedback about the website:
https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/sp ... N3Atanc6MA

So Hakaku, if you have critiques or suggestions you would like to share with them, I encourage you to give your constructive criticism via the provided form.
So if we as a forum can produce a conlang that we all use, we could get it posted on googles language page?
I KEIM HEWE IN THE ΠVEΓININΓ TA LEAWN WELX, ΠVVT NAW THE ΠVWΠVΣE FVW ΠVEINΓ HEWE IΣ VNKLEAW. THAT IΣ WAIT I LIKE TA MAKE KAWNLANΓΣ AWN THE ΣΠAWT.
TVWTLEHEAΔ

User avatar
Vuvuzela
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:34 pm

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Vuvuzela »

Turtlehead wrote:So if we as a forum can produce a conlang that we all use, we could get it posted on googles language page?
No.

Rodlox
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:02 am

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Rodlox »

Vuvgangujunga wrote:
treegod wrote:Just looked at the dots in Britain. There's Cornish and Scottish Gaelic, no sight of Welsh. Don't know how Polari got on there, and have absolutely no idea Sekpele or Yora are. I guess they come from immigrant communities living in London or something. I'm going to look them up now. I like how they've considered some sign languages.
Welsh isn't endangered.
Welsh was endangered (or severely threatened)...and only left there in living memory.

Terra wrote:
People may certainly switch languages because they choose to, and thereby benefit; but this is sometimes quite comparable to how people choose to do horrible work for horrible pay and thereby benefit (in the sense that it beats unemployment and homelessness). In many cases, for both, it's nothing you could call a happy choice. Meanwhile watching one's native culture and language slowly die out can cause deep pain and grief.
Indeed, watching your world-view collapse is distressing and agonizing, but it doesn't mean that it's worth preserving.
if you don't care about languages, why are you posting here?
when did English become an endangered language?
Ack, I forgot about that for a moment. I was just thinking about languages that are recent immigrants.
to North America? Khmer is a recent immigrant; English, not so much.
is there anything positive about losing the love of your life, and then going on a date? (or losing your liver and being put on a waiting list)
Why do you frame it as "losing the love of your life"? In the typical 3-stage model of language shift, each generation teaches the next generation the language that they want, willingly. The second generation simply doesn't care as much as the first, to teach it to the third. Why should the first have authority over what the second (and later) generations decide?
and I speak from personal experience that the third generation then curses the fact that the second didn't pass on what the first had to teach. hell, sometimes the cursing happens during the second generation, because the first won't share.
Terra wrote:
the first generation has authority because they are grandparents. are you really so disdainful of what ypur grandparents think that "fuck you -- I WILL THIS FOR ME AND MY DESCENDANTS!" is a tidy response to you?
Yes, actually, though I'll only get annoyed about it when they try to push it. I'm nowhere near as rude as your sentence.
yes you are.

I've met people as disdainful of the past as you are - you'll toss the grandparents out the door as soon as they mention a word in their native language.
alternatively, the worldview might be worth preserving if it is e.g.good
In that case, when, for example, all the Gumbaynggirr speakers start speaking English and give up their own language, we (the human race as a whole) lose Gumbaynggirr as a piece of cultural heritage, but we gain nothing.
Why is a cultural heritage considered inherently valuable?
if you have to ask, you'll never understand.
Here's some excerpts from http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/ ... hotography :
Melodie George-Moore was discouraged from speaking her tribal language while growing up. “Why learn Hupa? Everyone who speaks it is dead.” But she sensed her destiny was tied to learning the Hupa language, and so she has learned it well enough to fulfill her role as a medicine woman. Moore believes that answers to the troubles faced by her tribe may be found in the stories of her ancestors.
Caleen Sisk is the spiritual leader and the tribal chief of the Winnemem Wintu tribe—and a last speaker of the language that sustains her people’s identity. For a hundred years, the tribe has been fighting with the U.S. government over its territory along the McCloud River, abutting Mount Shasta, which they consider their birthplace. Loss of land and loss of language are connected, says Sisk. “This land is our church.”
Ai-Xaan Oorzhak throat sings and plays the igil, or horse-head fiddle, with bow techniques like “make horse walk.” Singers use the term “air horse” to describe the spiritual depths they draw from to produce the harmonic sounds.
A Tuvan shaman cleanses the house of a deceased relative’s spirit using smoke from burning juniper to chase away darkness. The incense fills the room as the family ask the spirits of hearth and home to protect them.
A marriage is not recognized until after the ritual slaughter of a mithan, a type of cattle, when its liver can be read. The verdict: A small spot might signal an accident in the couple’s future but otherwise a happy life.
I see plenty praise for spirituality, that is, superstition. I do not see why its considered valuable.[/'quote]

yes, because what possible use is community or family? such primitive concepts that have no place nowadays. :x

but how is it that you missed every reference to (and comment about) what science has learned from listening to those who could speak those languages. (like the hibernating turtles, at the very least)
The Tuvans slaughter sheep by making a slit in the animal’s chest, inserting a hand, and severing the main artery that leads to the heart. The term khoj özeeri conveys both the humane attitude of this method of slaughter as well as the skill that ensures that
no blood is spilled.
Butchering animals is barbarous!, unless minorities are doing it!
if you think its barbarous, then there is only one thing to say to you: "You've been doing it wrong."
MadBrain is a genius.

Rodlox
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:02 am

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Rodlox »

Turtlehead wrote:
Terra wrote:Butchering animals is barbarous!, unless minorities are doing it!
I agree, but then western society at large (or actually most of the world nowadays) hardly has a moral highground to talk about butchering animals, but that's just tu quoque.
Vegans hold the moral high ground in this argument.
not really -- vegans are denying food to animals.
MadBrain is a genius.

User avatar
installer_swan
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Hic
Contact:

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by installer_swan »

Rodlox wrote: not really -- vegans are denying food to animals.
That's absurdly stupid. And, there is at least an argument to be made that stunning and painlessly killing an animal raised on a farm is better than both, factory farmer animals tortured all their lives and killing animals in a strange brutal way by thrusting your hand to cut an artery insite its chest (even though the article, and the Tuvans, strangely call it "humane")
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-

User avatar
ol bofosh
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:30 pm
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by ol bofosh »

Vuvgangujunga wrote:Welsh isn't endangered.
Ah, that explains why it's not there.
Vuvgangujunga wrote:Polari, Cornish, and Scottish Gaelic are.
But Polari's a language? I thought it was a (rather complicated) system of slang.
Vuvgangujunga wrote:I think Sekpele and Yora may be a glitch.
Yes, just a bit...
It was about time I changed this.

User avatar
Vuvuzela
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:34 pm

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Vuvuzela »

treegod wrote: But Polari's a language? I thought it was a (rather complicated) system of slang.
A sprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot. What's a dialect, what's a system of slang, and what's a language are all ultimately decided by drawing an arbitrary line in the sand. And the line that Google has drawn has apparently put Polari into the "language" category.

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Pthagnar »

terra: oh i see, you're a robot. beep boop tradition is illogical beep boop english is the language of reason boop beep like what i am beep your music is inferior superstition -- you will see bach is much more scientific beep boop oh no animal slaughter meat meat i am robot not meat meeeeeat boooooooooooop

User avatar
Gulliver
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 2:58 pm
Location: The West Country
Contact:

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Gulliver »

treegod wrote:
Vuvgangujunga wrote:Polari, Cornish, and Scottish Gaelic are.
But Polari's a language? I thought it was a (rather complicated) system of slang.
I think it's a cant, or was originally, which is basically a set of slang words that are used together by a social group for a particular reason. I imagine it's included because of its historical significance in the British gay community and its status as a bit of an academic darling. I suppose it could be classified as a sociolect, which is a kind of dialect which is just shades of grey from being called a language, as Vuvgangujunga said.

The term language also can be used to mean "The vocabulary or phraseology of a particular sphere, discipline, profession, social group, etc.; jargon" to use the OED's terminology. It might not be right by our standards, but that doesn't mean it's not used that way; that's like complaining that there are mushrooms in the "fruit and vegetables" section of the supermarket.

User avatar
Terra
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 10:01 am

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Terra »

I agree, but then western society at large (or actually most of the world nowadays) hardly has a moral highground to talk about butchering animals, but that's just tu quoque.
I eat meat. I like eating it, and will continue to do so. It does not bother me that the Tuvans also eat meat. Who bothers me are the vegetarians/vegans who lecture (white) people about the barbarism of eating meat, but will bend over backwards to justify minority groups doing it.

The same sentiment also manifests itself in other things. They'll oppose deadly knives in schools, unless the people in question are Sikhs! There are no groups (that I know of) that claim guns to be part of their religion (American gun culture comes close), but it's only a matter of time before one does. Whatever will they do then?
Could become a hobby one day, eventually we will need hobbies to fill our days when the words of Revelation become true.
But what about the 2012 Armageddon?
if you don't care about languages, why are you posting here?
I like learning about grammar; I do not care for the cultural part.
to North America? Khmer is a recent immigrant; English, not so much.
English (and Spanish, French, Portuguese), compared to the Native American languages, surely is.
and I speak from personal experience that the third generation then curses the fact that the second didn't pass on what the first had to teach. hell, sometimes the cursing happens during the second generation, because the first won't share.
No, that's just you being a language geek. Most people do not care.
I've met people as disdainful of the past as you are - you'll toss the grandparents out the door as soon as they mention a word in their native language.
My grandparents speak only English.
if you think its barbarous, then there is only one thing to say to you: "You've been doing it wrong."
Why are people's sarcasm detectors not working today?
terra: oh i see, you're a robot. beep boop tradition is illogical beep boop english is the language of reason boop beep like what i am beep your music is inferior superstition -- you will see bach is much more scientific beep boop oh no animal slaughter meat meat i am robot not meat meeeeeat boooooooooooop
Beep boop, of course I am, beep boop.

User avatar
Gulliver
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 2:58 pm
Location: The West Country
Contact:

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Gulliver »

Terra wrote:I eat meat. I like eating it, and will continue to do so. It does not bother me that the Tuvans also eat meat. Who bothers me are the vegetarians/vegans who lecture (white) people about the barbarism of eating meat, but will bend over backwards to justify minority groups doing it.
As a vegan of three years and a vegetarian of eight years, who is friends with other vegans and occasionally talks about veganism, I feel obliged to step in here because you are misunderstanding something by oversimplifying it and removing any kind of context.

From my experience, most vegans have problems with the industrialised farming of animals for food in a culture and locality where food is abundant and it's incredibly easy to live without meat. The choice isn't between not eating animals and starving, it's between not eating animals and eating other things instead. There is a qualitative difference between eating meat because you like it and eating meat because no other sources of protein are readily available. I'd say that it's only a very small minority of vegans and vegetarians who say "thou shalt not eat flesh, fish or fowl" without taking cultural and health-related factors into account, where appropriate.

And back to linguistics.

User avatar
Terra
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 10:01 am

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Terra »

From my experience, most vegans have problems with the industrialised farming of animals for food in a culture and locality where food is abundant and it's incredibly easy to live without meat. The choice isn't between not eating animals and starving, it's between not eating animals and eating other things instead. There is a qualitative difference between eating meat because you like it and eating meat because no other sources of protein are readily available. I'd say that it's only a very small minority of vegans and vegetarians who say "thou shalt not eat flesh, fish or fowl" without taking cultural and health-related factors into account, where appropriate.
Oh come one, I doubt that the Tuvans eat meat because they know what protein is and know that they can't get it from anything else; They eat it because their culture just does. Nor do Hindus neglect to eat meat because they are concerned with the negative health effects, but because their culture just doesn't.

User avatar
Vuvuzela
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:34 pm

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Vuvuzela »

Terra wrote: Oh come one, I doubt that the Tuvans eat meat because they know what protein is and know that they can't get it from anything else; They eat it because their culture just does. Nor do Hindus neglect to eat meat because they are concerned with the negative health effects, but because their culture just doesn't.
There's a difference between knowing the word "protein" and knowing what protein is. One could easily know that when you eat the carcass of a dead animal, you feel full, you're more able to do things afterwards, and eat meat for that reason.

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Pthagnar »

how many white people know what protein is? that stuff that's in meat and you need it to grow muscles, right? some plants too, like soy, but they are a kind of meat substitute and not as good at meat, which is where the real, meaty, protein is.

and as for eating something "because their culture does" -- i am sure that the western diet is derived from first principles by everybody and isn't just a mixture of "well, this is cheap"/"we always had this as kids"/"this is what cool|rich people eat"

beep boop

User avatar
Gulliver
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 2:58 pm
Location: The West Country
Contact:

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Gulliver »

Terra wrote:Oh come one, I doubt that the Tuvans eat meat because they know what protein is and know that they can't get it from anything else; They eat it because their culture just does. Nor do Hindus neglect to eat meat because they are concerned with the negative health effects, but because their culture just doesn't.
If you read the words I actually wrote you will see that I wasn't commenting on the practices of the Tuvans, I was commenting on the beliefs of the vegans and vegetarians I know, based on my experience of them.

Yes, there is obviously a cultural aspect to it, though. Equally, both American and Western European contemporary culture is based around the assumption of abundant food with a wide variety of choice. There is a significant difference between buying factory farmed chicken and slaughtering your own livestock (or indeed hunting) for food.

User avatar
Terra
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 10:01 am

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Terra »

how many white people know what protein is? that stuff that's in meat and you need it to grow muscles, right? some plants too, like soy, but they are a kind of meat substitute and not as good at meat, which is where the real, meaty, protein is.

and as for eating something "because their culture does" -- i am sure that the western diet is derived from first principles by everybody and isn't just a mixture of "well, this is cheap"/"we always had this as kids"/"this is what cool|rich people eat"
I'm not sure why you think that I'm implying the former, because I indeed am implying the latter. The point that I'm trying to make is that I highly doubt that minority cultures have different patterns of how they choose their foods, but for some reason they're continually excused when moral arbiters start lecturing.
If you read the words I actually wrote you will see that I wasn't commenting on the practices of the Tuvans, I was commenting on the beliefs of the vegans and vegetarians I know, based on my experience of them.

Yes, there is obviously a cultural aspect to it, though. Equally, both American and Western European contemporary culture is based around the assumption of abundant food with a wide variety of choice. There is a significant difference between buying factory farmed chicken and slaughtering your own livestock (or indeed hunting) for food.
So then, do these vegetarians go out to farms to slaughter chickens themselves to eat? Would they indeed approve of doing so if someone wanted to eat meat? Do they support (and perhaps enjoy) hunting?

Yet, I'm inclined to believe that they'd slink away because they'd think it to be too squicky. I doubt that it's the abundance thing that convinces them.

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Pthagnar »

the only person who has even made a show of being squicked by slaughter in this thread is you -- are you going to keep making up people who are talking to you or are you going to always be right by default so long as somewhere in the world, far away, somebody else is an idiot?
of course, *you* were squicked by ethnomusicology, love of land, medicine women and funeral arrangements -- all "superstition" i.e. stuff that since YOU can't see the value in, therefore it HAS none.

User avatar
Gulliver
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 2:58 pm
Location: The West Country
Contact:

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Gulliver »

Terra wrote:So then, do these vegetarians go out to farms to slaughter chickens themselves to eat? Would they indeed approve of doing so if someone wanted to eat meat? Do they support (and perhaps enjoy) hunting?

Yet, I'm inclined to believe that they'd slink away because they'd think it to be too squicky. I doubt that it's the abundance thing that convinces them.
No, I'm sure very few vegetarians slaughter chickens to eat. as not only would they be misunderstanding the common use of the word vegetarian, but so are you (for the purposes of argument, I assume). I'm sure many, many meat eaters too would be put off slaughtering animals themselves.

Hunting is a separate issue. I have friends who hunt game, and in all honesty it doesn't bother me if they eat the proceeds. I think killing animals for ones own amusement is hardly the most ethical choice, but whatever I live in the real world and clenching my buttocks in despair every time someone does something I think is imperfect wouldn't benefit anybody (though I suspect I'd have a mighty fine ass after all those clenches). I'd rather they ate what they killed than chucking it in a skip because to do so would be very wasteful.

Hunting for sustenance is another matter entirely, particularly in non-agricultural social groups, which is something I think most people are aware of. As with anything to do with ethics, it's a matter of the choices you make. Do you buy the food that requires death, or do you buy the food that does not require death? In a situation where the choice is not a relevant one, because you are living hand-to-mouth or because a diverse diet is not otherwise available, it is not an ethical choice as much as its a pragmatic one.

I know at least one vegan and a vegetarian who chose to become so because they do not want to support the industrialisation of death, which necessitates a fairly high amount of resources compared to the end product. Again, this is an ethical choice based on their perceptions of animal farming, which again are largely irrelevant in non-agricultural societies.

(If any of the mods or other forum-users would like this discussion to be moved elsewhere, or for it to stop entirely, please say so.)

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Pthagnar »

Do you buy the food that requires death
YES. ALWAYS. DEATH IS THE ONLY SAUCE.

User avatar
Gulliver
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 2:58 pm
Location: The West Country
Contact:

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Gulliver »

Pthug wrote:
Do you buy the food that requires death
YES. ALWAYS. DEATH IS THE ONLY SAUCE.
And I respect that. Condiments are important, even if I think you should give tabasco a second chance.

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: Google launches the Endangered Language Project

Post by Pthagnar »

tobasco is made of dead peppers
and it is shit. cholula is better.

Post Reply