Google launches the Endangered Language Project

[Nooj]

Why is a cultural heritage considered inherently valuable?

Forget about inherently valuable. Is cultural heritage valuable at all? A lot of people would say yes. So right there, you have a good reason - because a lot of people care about it.

[Rodlox]

if you don't care about languages, why are you posting here?

I like learning about grammar; I do not care for the cultural part.

then why are you posting here? you haven't answered that.

to North America? Khmer is a recent immigrant; English, not so much.

English (and Spanish, French, Portuguese), compared to the Native American languages, surely is.

oh, if we're going for a measure of Deep Time, why stop there? the O2-derived grunts of a bunch of entitled apes is all newfangled; far better to speak the language of tectonic plates. ;P

and I speak from personal experience that the third generation then curses the fact that the second didn't pass on what the first had to teach. hell, sometimes the cursing happens during the second generation, because the first won't share.

No, that's just you being a language geek. Most people do not care.

your next statement shows the emptiness of your assertion. (your above statement shows you didn't bother to read the Nat.Geo. article more than superficially)

I've met people as disdainful of the past as you are - you'll toss the grandparents out the door as soon as they mention a word in their native language.

My grandparents speak only English.

And mine were immigrants. (one was an immigrant's child, and not allowed to speak the old language)

[Travis B.]

Terra obviously shows that they think everyone thinks or ought to think like them, and that their own values are the only ones that matters (and which implicitly everyone other than "language geeks" hold).

[Rodlox]

Terra obviously shows that they think everyone thinks or ought to think like them, and that their own values are the only ones that matters (and which implicitly everyone other than "language geeks" hold).

Terra speaks Arka?

(obscure one-forumthread reference)


Seriously, Terra's attitude was held by my great-grandfather...it's why he didn't let his immigrant wife speak German.

[Terra]

No, I'm sure very few vegetarians slaughter chickens to eat. as not only would they be misunderstanding the common use of the word vegetarian, but so are you (for the purposes of argument, I assume).

You were the one that suggested that vegetarians would be okay with people slaughtering non-mass-farm-raised chickens, not me.

I'm sure many, many meat eaters too would be put off slaughtering animals themselves.

Indeed, though part of it's because of the disconnect between knowing the source of a food, and how it gets to the supermarket.

the only person who has even made a show of being squicked by slaughter in this thread is you -- are you going to keep making up people who are talking to you or are you going to always be right by default so long as somewhere in the world, far away, somebody else is an idiot?
of course, *you* were squicked by ethnomusicology, love of land, medicine women and funeral arrangements -- all "superstition" i.e. stuff that since YOU can't see the value in, therefore it HAS none.

Oh wise Pthug, pray tell, how I'm to determine the value in things then.

then why are you posting here? you haven't answered that.

Stop being dense.

your next statement shows the emptiness of your assertion.

How?

(your above statement shows you didn't bother to read the Nat.Geo. article more than superficially)

The people that I observe and communicate with in real life seem much more concerned about having a working car, warm house, something sweet to drink after a day at work, etc, than pining for their "lost" heritage language. Descendants of immigrants "lose" their heritage language and go on to lead happy, productive lives. Get over it.

Terra obviously shows that they think everyone thinks or ought to think like them, and that their own values are the only ones that matters (and which implicitly everyone other than "language geeks" hold).

I've yet to hear a convincing reason why I should share their values.

Seriously, Terra's attitude was held by my great-grandfather...it's why he didn't let his immigrant wife speak German.

Do you not think that part of the United States's solidarity lies in the fact that generations of immigrants have lost their language in favor of English?

[Rodlox]

then why are you posting here? you haven't answered that.

Stop being dense.

I'm not being dense - you haven't answered the question.

(your above statement shows you didn't bother to read the Nat.Geo. article more than superficially)

The people that I observe and communicate with in real life seem much more concerned about having a working car, warm house, something sweet to drink after a day at work, etc, than pining for their "lost" heritage language. Descendants of immigrants "lose" their heritage language and go on to lead happy, productive lives. Get over it.

because they can't lead happy, productive lives without losing the linguistic heritage? (and why did you put LOSE in scare quotes?)

Seriously, Terra's attitude was held by my great-grandfather...it's why he didn't let his immigrant wife speak German.

Do you not think that part of the United States's solidarity lies in the fact that generations of immigrants have lost their language in favor of English?

Ahh, so that's why we were able to lock up the Nisei?...because they hadn't all lost their language in favor of English, and therefore weren't in solidarity with the rest of America? that logic is shit.

my great-grandmother was just as against the Kaiser as her anglophone neighbors.

[Terra]

I'm not being dense - you haven't answered the question.

I have. What don't you understand? I like studying grammar, the puzzle of trying to tie language families together, reconstructing previous languages, etc. Again, what don't you understand about this?

because they can't lead happy, productive lives without losing the linguistic heritage? (and why did you put LOSE in scare quotes?)

1) I'm not implying so.
2) Because "losing" something is A Bad Thing. But people can still be happy without it, thus it doesn't qualify as a bad thing, thus it begs for a different word.

Ahh, so that's why we were able to lock up the Nisei?...because they hadn't all lost their language in favor of English, and therefore weren't in solidarity with the rest of America? that logic is shit.

my great-grandmother was just as against the Kaiser as her anglophone neighbors.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Xephyr]

Southern Sotho is on that map. Lol.

[Legion]

the United States's solidarity

No such thing.

[Rodlox]

I'm not being dense - you haven't answered the question.

I have. What don't you understand? I like studying grammar, the puzzle of trying to tie language families together, reconstructing previous languages, etc. Again, what don't you understand about this?

why you are posting HERE in a thread about endangered languages and the efforts to save those languages.


I'm trying really hard not to Godwinize to any degree, but you're making it difficult.

because they can't lead happy, productive lives without losing the linguistic heritage? (and why did you put LOSE in scare quotes?)

1) I'm not implying so.

yes you are.

2) Because "losing" something is A Bad Thing. But people can still be happy without it, thus it doesn't qualify as a bad thing, thus it begs for a different word.

thanks to modern medicine, I can live a perfectly normal life without a heart pumping my blood.

does this mean that hearts are now a thing of the past that we should get rid of?

Ahh, so that's why we were able to lock up the Nisei?...because they hadn't all lost their language in favor of English, and therefore weren't in solidarity with the rest of America? that logic is shit.

my great-grandmother was just as against the Kaiser as her anglophone neighbors.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not.

though if you think that the ways of our ancestors and (great)grandparents are de facto bad things...you may want to try reading about what North Korea (and other, similar places) are like these days.

[Rodlox]

the United States's solidarity

No such thing.

I suppose from the perspective of someone with Terra's background, it appears to exist.

then again, such background appears to be "my family has always spoken English, so I don't see the problem with everyone else having to learn it."

not that this plan has ever gone wrong/awry/disasterous, oh no.

[Terra]

why you are posting HERE in a thread about endangered languages and the efforts to save those languages.


I'm trying really hard not to Godwinize to any degree, but you're making it difficult.

I'm not sure anymore. Arguing with liberals has always shown itself to be a completely fruitless task, after all.

yes you are.

Is it necessary? No. Is it more likely? (in the sense that they'll move to the city, get a education/job, etc), yes.

thanks to modern medicine, I can live a perfectly normal life without a heart pumping my blood.

does this mean that hearts are now a thing of the past that we should get rid of?

The metaphor does not hold.

I'm not.

though if you think that the ways of our ancestors and (great)grandparents are de facto bad things...you may want to try reading about what North Korea (and other, similar places) are like these days.

Seriously Rodlox? Seriously? Go fuck yourself.

I suppose from the perspective of someone with Terra's background, it appears to exist.

then again, such background appears to be "my family has always spoken English, so I don't see the problem with everyone else having to learn it."

not that this plan has ever gone wrong/awry/disasterous, oh no.

Don't claim to know my background when you don't. My great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents were immigrants, and learned English as a second language. They neglected to teach their L1 to my grandparents, and are my grandparents and parents agonizing over this "loss" as this thread would suggest? No, they're completely fine with it, as am I.

* * *

tldr: Go fuck yourself.

[Vuvuzela]

I'm trying really hard not to Godwinize to any degree, but you're making it difficult.

Hitler posted in threads about endangered languages, you Nazi! Am I doing it right?

[ol bofosh]

the United States's solidarity

No such thing.

Didn't the Great and Wise Barack Obama say "We always have been and always will be the United States of America"? (ignoring the little subject of the Civil War, of course).

[Vuvuzela]

Didn't the Great and Wise Barack Obama say "We always have been and always will be the United States of America"? (ignoring the little subject of the Civil War, of course).

Trust me, I'm a politician.

[Rodlox]

Didn't the Great and Wise Barack Obama say "We always have been and always will be the United States of America"? (ignoring the little subject of the Civil War, of course).

Trust me, I'm a politician.

We're from the government, and we're here to help you.

I'm trying really hard not to Godwinize to any degree, but you're making it difficult.

Hitler posted in threads about endangered languages, you Nazi! Am I doing it right?

actually I was thinking more along the lines of "Why are you posting in a thread about saving endangered languages? Your argument is like an antisemite's saying that if they don't want to be minorities, the Jews and other Semitic peoples need to abandon their heritage and their culture."

actually, Terra's saying exactly that - only expanding it from "Jews and Semitic peoples" to "all linguistic minorities."

why you are posting HERE in a thread about endangered languages and the efforts to save those languages.
I'm trying really hard not to Godwinize to any degree, but you're making it difficult.

I'm not sure anymore. Arguing with liberals has always shown itself to be a completely fruitless task, after all.

we conservatives see value in every language. just like we see value in every fetus. just ask SIL.

thanks to modern medicine, I can live a perfectly normal life without a heart pumping my blood.

does this mean that hearts are now a thing of the past that we should get rid of?

The metaphor does not hold.

actually it does -- your argument seems to center around the need to shed away things that aren't needed, like heritage and language. so once the heart is not needed, why keep it?

I'm not.
though if you think that the ways of our ancestors and (great)grandparents are de facto bad things...you may want to try reading about what North Korea (and other, similar places) are like these days.

Seriously Rodlox? Seriously? Go fuck yourself.

modern=\=better

I suppose from the perspective of someone with Terra's background, it appears to exist.
then again, such background appears to be "my family has always spoken English, so I don't see the problem with everyone else having to learn it."
not that this plan has ever gone wrong/awry/disasterous, oh no.

Don't claim to know my background when you don't.

I was using all available evidence that you yourself presented.

My great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents were immigrants, and learned English as a second language. They neglected to teach their L1 to my grandparents, and are my grandparents and parents agonizing over this "loss" as this thread would suggest? No, they're completely fine with it, as am I.

are your parents and grandparents agonizing over the loss of their grandparents? no? then they must be completely fine with it.

nobody mourns 24/7, for anything.


and you and your parents have never said "I wish I could speak the language of my great-great-grandparents" ?

tldr: Go fuck yourself.

I can't - you're using the room.

[Rodlox]

perhaps we have been asking the wrong question. if we have, let me be the first to apologize to Terra {only for asking the wrong question}, and ask Terra this replacement question:

You have said that it does not matter if languages are abandoned on the highway of history, because the only important thing is for people to get a job -- so, how eager are you to abandon English in favor of Mandarin or any of the other languages which has (and are gaining) more speakers than English has?

[Hakaku]

The website has only been up for 2 days. I imagine it will grow and become more useful with time. Remember: Rome was not built in a day.

The project, its entire website, and the supporting alliance were most certainly not created in two days: you're looking at at least a few months of preparation. If Google is like most institutions, then the project was thought up over a year ago.

I do not find it suprising that they would point to or curate info from Wikipedia in that the whole point of a portal is to point to other sites that might be useful. If you read their home page they also curate information provided by the Catalogue of Endangered Languages (ELCat), produced by the University of Hawai'i at Manoa and The Institute for Language Information and Technology (The Linguist List) at Eastern Michigan University.

Here's the problem: the information they "curate" from these two is extremely minimal. If you took the time to browse around, you would realize that they basically only use them to identify which languages are endangered and to identify what their code points are. There is no other linguistic information featured on its website that comes from either of them, only user-submitted links to documents. More importantly, these documents happen to be forced to use Google Docs, which is extremely sketchy to me.

I disagree with your assertion of "nothing." Clearly they are attempting something. However, if you don't like it, then simply don't use it. No need to be so negative and belittling about other people's efforts!

If criticism of a poorly executed project is considered belittling it, then so be it. But I'm not the first to raise these points, and the project has already received huge amounts of criticism from the online community. The idea itself is noble, but considering how much more Google could do than this, it's a huge dissappointment.

Perhaps you do not feel sentimental or curious about the loss of such languages. (....)

Language is wholly important to me, otherwise I wouldn't be studying in the field, nor would I be putting my spare time and effort into documenting Japanese dialects and Ryukyuan languages or accumulating accessible resources for them. Your argument about sentimentalism is here meaningless and entirely besides the point of my previous post.

The problem isn't with documenting languages, it's with the project itself. I don't think you've actually taken any time to use their website and explore its innumerable limits. Their goal isn't to document, it's to provide a portal towards linguistic documents stored on Google Docs, videos on Youtube, and books in Google Books. In other words, they do nothing to help document or to help generate information on any of these languages: that still rests upon the shoulders of linguists within its alliance and other users.

"Overseeing" a project means absolutely nothing if you're not putting the money into the proper things. A pretty website won't actually help raise that much awareness, and the people who are most likely to use and to benefit from this project are linguists. But if it's not a functional website, it's going to suffer from oversight and ultimately fall into Google's list of other failed projects. A negative perspective, perhaps, but a realist one nonetheless.

[Gray Richardson]

Okay, well, I am sorry that Google disappointed you. You should probably not use the website if you find it beneath your standards or not very useful to you.

However, if you would like to be constructive, maybe you should use their critique form to pass helpful information on to them about your specific criticisms so they can make the site better. Perhaps you will even get a response from them.

If you are a scholar of Japanese dialects and Ryukyuan languages, I'm sure they would be happy to link to your own work. That is one way in which you could help make the project better and make people aware of an area of your own interest. Perhaps people would see your work and contribute information that would be helpful to you. You could start the seed of a community of Ryukyuan scholars that, through synergy, might help to further study in the field.

[Hakaku]

Okay, well, I am sorry that Google disappointed you. You should probably not use the website if you find it beneath your standards or not very useful to you.

I have a feeling you enjoy being condescending, but you're right, I don't have to use their website. Regardless, that doesn't stop me from being allowed to have an opinion on it.

However, if you would like to be constructive, maybe you should use their critique form to pass helpful information on to them about your specific criticisms so they can make the site better. Perhaps you will even get a response from them.

I never said I hadn't.

If you are a scholar of Japanese dialects and Ryukyuan languages, I'm sure they would be happy to link to your own work. (...)

It's not a matter of what I do or my works, nor is it a matter of being able to communicate with others in a related field. They simply don't accept anything that isn't submitted through Google Docs or Youtube. In other words, they don't do links, nor do they provide any means of communicating with others in related fields. Hence why this project is going to have so much difficulty starting off.

[Pthagnar]

go on, hakaku, promote synergy. i dare you

[Gray Richardson]

I have a feeling you enjoy being condescending, but you're right, I don't have to use their website. Regardless, that doesn't stop me from being allowed to have an opinion on it.

Did I come across as condescending? I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

Although, I am continually astonished when people who like to express negative opinions and criticism of others are so sensitive about being criticized in return. Of course you have every right to express whatever opinions you like. But that goes both ways; you shouldn't be so surprised if your negative opinions about other people's good works engender negative opinions about yourself.

They simply don't accept anything that isn't submitted through Google Docs or Youtube. In other words, they don't do links, nor do they provide any means of communicating with others in related fields.

If I may offer a simple solution: submit a summary in Google Docs with links to your work or website(s). Links easily embed in Google Docs. People can read the document and click through to your own site or any other site you care to point them to.

And I am not being condescending when I tell you that your research on Ryukyuan languages sounds very interesting and that you should share it with a wider audience. Either on Google's website, Wikipedia, or on the ZBB or in whatever way you want to put it out there.

The great advantage I think that the Google site has to offer is that, for those folks who have research that they don't know how or where to share (whether an old term paper, some field research, or recordings, etc.), the Endangered Language Project seems like a good starting place to post it.

[Pthagnar]

woah as well as promoting synergy, you're also making a non-apologetic apology!

protip: if you're sorry for being condescending then you should apologise for being condescending, not for conditionally maybe upsetting somebody.

this is generally the better course of action [except e.g. in the presence of lawyers waving books on tort law around], but there is an additional *super good reason* to do it in this case. to illustrate both the general and specific reasons with a clearer example:

if you are angry and upset somebody in your anger, then the problem [for you] wasn't just that you upset somebody but that you *lost your temper*. it is better for you to think on the latter because it results in what i sinkingly suspect you may very well call "actionable information".

i presume you *already* believe that you should not upset people and so thinking "well, i should be careful not to upset people when i talk to them about this" will a) do you fuckall good and b) strike you as an absurdity on the level of "i should be careful not to get my genitals out and start whacking them on the table when i talk to them about this". you went to primary school too, you have that down SOLID.

what you *want* to think is something like "i suspect this person might be trying, so i should be careful not to lose my temper when talking to them", but how are you to Acquire The Learnings and do this? Well, by apologising sincerely when you *do* fuck up and lose your temper rather than apologising "for hurting your feelings". Does it hurt you to do so? Can you feel a burning eye on your innermost soul? Any kind of resistance there at all? Good -- that's guilt and it is how you stop fucking up!

now to the specific case:

one effect of the non-apology apology is that it gives the impression of -- to use another phrase that might be too familiar to you -- not being willing to "take ownership". in giving one, you do not definitively, indicatively stick yourself out and say "i fucked up, please accept my apologies", but make your apology conditional on an "if" -- among other things, "if it seems worth my time to".

this is the sort of thing you can get away with only if you are superior to your interlocutor -- people expect their superiors to be evasive, unwilling to grant small concessions of humility and not to get involved sentimentally with them unless it in their own interests, but they expect their equals to be open, honest and sincere. by thus *being* evasive, proud and unsparing of sentiment to somebody who is your equal, you are *being* condescending.

you can hopefully see why it might be an awful, awful idea to get some more condescension in during the time when you are attempting to apologise for *being* condescending in the first place -- it is like the angry person shouting "I AM NOT LOSING MY TEMPER -- WHY DO YOU KEEP INSISTING THAT I AM LOSING MY TEMPER?? STOP SAYING THAT!!!"

[Hakaku]

Although, I am continually astonished when people who like to express negative opinions and criticism of others are so sensitive about being criticized in return. Of course you have every right to express whatever opinions you like. But that goes both ways; you shouldn't be so surprised if your negative opinions about other people's good works engender negative opinions about yourself.

It's only so negative as you choose it to be. It just baffles me that your logic towards someone criticizing something is to try to downplay them directly, rather than attack the argument at hand. I'm really not that much of an angry person: I've already stated the project is a nifty idea, but you can't expect me to glorify it.

If I may offer a simple solution: submit a summary in Google Docs with links to your work or website(s). Links easily embed in Google Docs. People can read the document and click through to your own site or any other site you care to point them to.

Good point.