The Rosenfelder Challenge

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The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

In 'The (brilliant) Language Construction Kit', Mark Rosenfelder discusses Basic English and Speedtalk. Specifically, the idea that with a few hundred carefully chosen basic words, we can communicate just fine. The comment that really caught my eye was:

"Just don't take it too seriously; if you do, your punishment is to learn 850 words of any actual foreign language and be set down in a city of monolingual speakers of that language."

Well, I took him up on this challenge...

I took a list of 100 words: the core vocabulary of root words from my conlang, Latha - designed to allow the construction of the most comprehensive set of compound words possible. I translated them into Spanish. I added a few essential words and phrases: 'hola', 'ciao', 'for favor', 'gracias, and 'disculpe' (which I suggest everyone learns before entering any country). I learned two phrases that would help me avoid having to deal with tenses: 'en el pasado' and 'en el futuro'. I dealt with moods similarly: 'puede' for 'can/could' and 'necesita' for 'need to/must'. I only learned one form of each word (for verbs, the 3p present). I also knew to add '-s' for plurals, but that was it.

Then I went to live in a small village in the Peruvian Amazon for about 10 weeks, where everyone speaks Spanish and the only English speakers I met were three foreign residents, one local boy and tourists passing through. Here's what happened:

I found that I could communicate adequately from day one.

If I didn't know the word for something, I made up a compound, and I was understood - and was often told the Spanish word as well, which was a bonus. I also found it handy sometimes to pick an English word of Latin origin, and say it as if it were Spanish, although I guess that's cheating in terms of the challenge. The locals immediately understood that I was not inflecting any words - and this caused hilarity, but not incomprehension (because I always used a pronoun). The hilarity at hearing Spanish spoken this way helped, because talking with me became a favourite village sport, and some of them even enjoyed copying the way I spoke.

I quickly picked up the personal verb endings -o, -as, -amos, -an without really thinking about it. I also found it helpful to learn '-ando' for the present participle ('-ing'), '-ado' for past participle ('-ed'), and the present tense of 'to be': estoy, estas, esta, estamos, estan. Syntax didn't matter much - nobody cared if I said 'estupido gringo' or 'gringo estupido' - the fact that I gave myself this nickname did win me a few friends though. :)

The main problem I had was that locals would assume from the fluency of my communication that I knew a lot more words than I did, and would use vocabulary that I didn't know - I solved this by saying "disculpe, yo no tiene mucho palabras" ("sorry, I no has much words") whenever I spoke to new person.

By the time I left, my vocabulary had risen to about 200-300 words (including the Latinate 'cheat' words I had incorporated). I had picked up some of the inflectional grammar, without really trying. This was mostly useful for understanding others; I didn't really need to use it myself. I was conversing with ease about environmental issues, politics and philosophy. The local people were amazed, and I was asked to teach English at the local school using my system. Alas, I had to leave.

I conclude that it is indeed possible to communicate using only a few hundred carefully chosen words, and very little else. In fact, it's really easy. It's an extremely fast way to start learning a foreign language.

I also conclude that, while inflections are concise, the meanings within an inflected word can be 'exploded' into separate words. The result takes longer to say, but is equally clear if done well, if not clearer.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Miekko »

Your conclusion is faulty - if it were adequate, you wouldn't be learning more words while doing it, you'd be satisfied with your vocab.
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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Pthagnar »

satisfaction with the merely adequate is a sign of a tiny soul

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

Who ever stopped learning words because their existing vocabulary was adequate?

I suggest that a few hundred words is enough to communicate fluently about most ordinary things. That's not the same as saying that it's not fun to have more.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by GrinningManiac »

This is absolutely brilliant.

I wonder, though, if it would work with less-related languages like Russian or Hindi. For me I always find it's less the being understood and more the understanding. People talk FAST if you don't tell 'em to slow down.

In any case this reminds me of the brief stint I had in South Peru and you've given me fond memories and a cool story. Well done, mate.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

Thank you!

It's being tried in Hindi as we speak by a friend of mine who's over there. So, we'll see. I feel confident, because English and Spanish are pretty different, grammatically - but yes, I'm looking forward to trying it out in Russian and Chinese. All of this will help to refine the system, so that it copes with different languages better.

I'm working on a set of PC programs that will teach my (evolving) list of words in any of a dozen languages (I've chosen the 10 most widely spoken languages in the world, and I also want Novial and Cornish - the resurrected language of my homeland).

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Terra »

1) Forgive me for being incredulous, but I can't tell if you're a troll or not.
2) If you aren't a troll, how/with what organization did you venture into the Peruvian Amazon? (This is assuming that you aren't a eccentric millionaire that can afford to do something like this on a whim, by deciding to leave on Monday, taking a plane to Peru on Wednesday, and arriving in the village on Friday.)
3) Did the villagers speak some native language as their mother tongue? That is, was Spanish their second language?
4) What were the ~100 words that you did learn?
5) What kind of compounds did you use? (Examples please? What kind of formations? (only noun+noun?, verb+noun?, etc)
6) Did you keep a diary? (Recording what new things that you learned each day, what topics you talked about, who (gender, age, rank/status, etc) you talked to, etc.)

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by finlay »

this is pretty much how i have survived in Japan, and why I wouldn't be able to in Korea – with only 5 words to my name, and the names of a few dishes like bibimbap, I felt completely lost there, because even though a high proportion of the population speaks English and/or Japanese, there are still plenty that don't.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

Terra wrote:1) Forgive me for being incredulous, but I can't tell if you're a troll or not.
2) If you aren't a troll, how/with what organization did you venture into the Peruvian Amazon? (This is assuming that you aren't a eccentric millionaire that can afford to do something like this on a whim, by deciding to leave on Monday, taking a plane to Peru on Wednesday, and arriving in the village on Friday.)
3) Did the villagers speak some native language as their mother tongue? That is, was Spanish their second language?
4) What were the ~100 words that you did learn?
5) What kind of compounds did you use? (Examples please? What kind of formations? (only noun+noun?, verb+noun?, etc)
6) Did you keep a diary? (Recording what new things that you learned each day, what topics you talked about, who (gender, age, rank/status, etc) you talked to, etc.)
1) You are forgiven. I'm not a troll.
2) I ventured into the Peruvian Amazon with about £3,000 ($5,000) that I saved while working as a teacher (partially as a result of my experiences there, I since quit and became a gardener, and also spend more time writing, designing games, and other fun stuff). That money lasted 5 months, after paying for flights from the UK. I'm what is known in the trade as a 'shit-arse backpacker'. It took me a week (by local bus, hitch-hiking and river boat) to reach the village where I stayed for a while. I did not plan to go there; I just headed for the jungle and found it.
3) The village is called Padre Cocha. It's half an hour by boat along the river Nanay from Iquitos. The place is surrounded by Amazonian rainforest. There is also an animal sanctuary there called Pilpintuwasi, where I got a job (on day two). The locals mostly spoke Spanish as a first language. Some spoke it as a second language, using Cocama or Yagua with their own families. While I was there, I had a girlfriend who was Cocama, so my language system helped a lot!
4) I don't have the exact list of words that I started with anymore, as it has continually changed and evolved, but I will post the best edit I can find below.
5) The most common kind of compound I used was adjective(s)+noun (eg. 'pequeno-persona', 'little-person' for 'child') Sometimes noun+noun (eg. 'comida-tiempo', 'food-time' for 'dinner'). Once I learned '-ando' and '-ado' ('-ing' and '-ed'), I started using present and past participles as extra adjectives (eg. 'piensando-parte', 'thinking part' for 'head'). Doing this kind of thing takes a bit of practise, but it's a powerful tool.
6) I kept a diary, but it was mostly focussed on my adventures. I edited these, added pictures and sent them to friends as 'episodes' in pdf form, and I'm quite happy to share those. They will form part of the basis for a collection of my travel stories from India, Kenya, Peru and elsewhere that I will be publishing next year. I kept a language notebook, but this did not survive - it just contained words.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

This is pretty similar to the word list I started with:


General
Hello
Goodbye
Please
Thank you
Sorry
Yes
No

Pronouns
I, me
we, us
you (informal, polite, plural)
he, him
she, her
it
they, them
this, that

Nouns
thing
place
time
way, path, direction

person
animal
plant, vegetable
food
drink
bag, box (container)
money

name
number, group

Numbers
zero, none
part
half
one
two
three
four
five
ten
hundred
all

Comparison
very
a little
more
less
same, like
different

Adjective
good
bad
possible
happy
sad
big
small
hot
cold
fast
slow
easy
difficult

Substances
substance, stuff
sound
light

Colours
white, light
black, dark
red
yellow
green
blue
brown

Positions
where
to
from
in, inside
out, outside
above
below
ahead
behind
left
right
side
near, with
far

Time
past, before
present, now
future, after
when, during

Verbs
doing
going
coming
wanting
having
giving
taking
liking
disliking
seeing
speaking
understanding
thinking
feeling

This is a program I wrote recently to help others learn my conlang, Latha - it uses the basic list of 100 words, and then allows the user to learn another 100. It's not finished, but I decided to post the link because I think some of you may find this interesting:
http://www.mediafire.com/?d7u6c17b676sz2s

...and this is quick the Spanish version that I threw together earlier this week for a friend on holiday in Spain.
http://www.mediafire.com/?a6sb3c2ybulcsfl

I am well aware that both the language simplification system and the program need more work. I'm on it.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Torco »

If this is a true story, then MAN, this might be a fucking awesome way to learn a lang... just identify 100 absolutely essential words and BAM, you have a decent start

however, much of your experience, if true [pics or it didn't happen, it's quite an extraordinary story] is due to the cooperation of the locals: I assure you less cooperative people would have just looked at you with derision at your mangling of the lang and just walked away. I do hope the story is true, though... sounds osom.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Terra »

This is a program I wrote recently to help others learn my conlang, Latha - it uses the basic list of 100 words, and then allows the user to learn another 100. It's not finished, but I decided to post the link because I think some of you may find this interesting:
http://www.mediafire.com/?d7u6c17b676sz2s

...and this is quick the Spanish version that I threw together earlier this week for a friend on holiday in Spain.
http://www.mediafire.com/?a6sb3c2ybulcsfl
Dear goodness, why are you distributing executables for flashcard programs? You do know how to program in javascript, right?

(Also, from a design perspective, black on dark red is hard to read, and buttons not doing anything on hover makes them look just like simple static text.)

* * *

Looking at the list, how would/did you express something like "milk", "snake", or "fish"? I could see "white-drink" for "milk", but there's no "crawl" or "swim" for "snake" and "fish". What about body parts? or heavenly bodies? I assume that these are things you learned from the locals relatively quickly?

How extensively did you use hand signs/physical imitation to communicate?

Did you pick up any yagua or cocama words?

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

This is a true story. I don't what evidence will suffice, but if you google 'ashmoonfruit', you will find links to my youtube channel, where there are numerous videos I made at the animal sanctuary where I worked. There is one video of me up the Andes, shortly after I left the village, saying "Mire, los montagnes! Muchos, muchos montagnes! Es muy, muy bonita! Ciao!". I suppose I could get witness statements from friends in Peru who witnessed my time there. It's true.

The program is in the early stages of development, as I said when I posted the link. I don't know java, or much about programming in general. One year ago, I started building programs using GameMaker, which I now use for all kinds of stuff, not just games. Anyway, the point is: I'm showing you my notes, not selling you a product - be nice.

Yes, I used gestures, facial expressions, pointing, and all these things helped plug holes in my vocab. I see language primarily as communication, so all that stuff is totally fair play - words are not the only language, and I make no apology for exploiting that. After I left, and started communicating with friends from Peru online, it was harder.

Ok, I'm at a festival doing this on my phone - otherwise I'd be giving you links to my evidence. :) I'll be back to engage more fully after the weekend.

...it IS true, dude.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

Yes, the cooperation of those lovely people was essential. In my experience, most people in the world, wherever they live, are friendly and helpful if approached with a smile, some courtesy and an attitude of reciprocity. I've yet to find a place devoid of a friendly face or three. Except London [jokes].

Yes, those 100 words, while enough to get me communicating and generally coping with life, quickly grew to double the number, as I needed a greater descriptive range. I actually remember miming "snake", being told "serpiente" (duh, should've guessed that one), and making a mental note to learn some shape words. Note: not more animal words (they're too specific) - shape words are more ueful for describing all sorts of stuff. The program lists 200 words - once I knew that many, I was rarely tongue-tied.

I only learned a little about Cocama, from my Cocama girlfriend, who preferred to speak Spanish with me and others in the village, and keep Cocama for the family (most of whom live farther from the town). I only met one Yagua man to speak with: on the upside, he was a shaman - on the downside, he was pissed and off his face on ayahuasca. Sad, really. The conversation didn't get as far as language, but I did hear both being spoken sometimes.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by brandrinn »

GrinningManiac wrote:I wonder, though, if it would work with less-related languages like Russian or Hindi..
Russian and Hindi are precisely as closely related to English as Spanish is. I guess you're talking about the latinate borrowings, but smooshy fruit already said that those were only one part of his success, and that the experiment worked even before he started using them.
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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Terra »

This is a true story. I don't what evidence will suffice, but if you google 'ashmoonfruit', you will find links to my youtube channel, where there are numerous videos I made at the animal sanctuary where I worked. There is one video of me up the Andes, shortly after I left the village, saying "Mire, los montagnes! Muchos, muchos montagnes! Es muy, muy bonita! Ciao!". I suppose I could get witness statements from friends in Peru who witnessed my time there. It's true.
Yes, I used gestures, facial expressions, pointing, and all these things helped plug holes in my vocab. I see language primarily as communication, so all that stuff is totally fair play - words are not the only language, and I make no apology for exploiting that. After I left, and started communicating with friends from Peru online, it was harder.

Ok, I'm at a festival doing this on my phone - otherwise I'd be giving you links to my evidence. I'll be back to engage more fully after the weekend.

...it IS true, dude.
Yes, yes, I believe you. I think that some of the weirdness is because you aren't a board regular.
The program is in the early stages of development, as I said when I posted the link. I don't know java, or much about programming in general. One year ago, I started building programs using GameMaker, which I now use for all kinds of stuff, not just games. Anyway, the point is: I'm showing you my notes, not selling you a product - be nice.
Java is a completely different language from Javascript. Not only that, but they're also typically used for different purposes. The latter is built-in to every half-decent web browser, and is thus a prime medium to use for something like this. It'd serve you well to learn it, but it will probably be difficult if you don't have any programming experience already.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Ghostfishe »

Javascript is actually a pretty good suggestion... there's a bit of a learning curve for programming things from scratch with it, but there's such a wide range of tutorials and freebie scripts out there that it more than makes up for it. At the very least, it would help you share what you make with more people, as folks tend to be a lot more reserved about downloading an .exe from a site like MediaFire than they are about visiting a web page that has some Javascript on it.
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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by GrinningManiac »

Well, I'm sold. Even if your story is fabricated (which I don't think you did, not for a minute) then it's still an interesting way of going around things. I don't know if you've ever heard of Benny the Irish Polyglot but he teaches much in the same manner. His mantra is that it's easy to learn any language so long as you get over your fear of talking to people and do so regularly. I guess I hadn't thought of it until now but the secondary implications of such a statement is that vocabulary isn't all that important if you're trying to communicate rather than trying to pass a test.

I'm gonna try and get the Russian version of this. I've downloaded your Spanish and I vow that when I get back to Uni I'm going to return to the Spanish practice-sessions held by the Spanish course students and see if I can hold my ground better.

This is seriously exciting me.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by GrinningManiac »

Said I on Facebook :

"En el pasado yo escucho de un hombre qui es posible yo puede comprendar y hablar una idoma aser yo tengo dos ciento palabras. Si, yo hablo estupidamente, pero aser yo comprendo...es importante aser no soy correcto? Hablando es el parte importante!"

Now to see what my Spanish friends have to say...

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Yng »

That's not really what the original guy was doing, though. You're inflecting verbs all over the place, for a start. And imposing English grammatical categories far more than you need to.
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

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short texts in Cuhbi

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

I'm tempted to say: quid pro quo.

But, I really want to say that that is one of most excellent pieces of mangled espanol I've ever seen. :D What we lose is correctness, we gain in hilarity - and in the all-important opportunity to communicate.

I can't wait to offend more linguists and programmers by releasing ugly exe files that allow me and others to communicate in all manner of mangled languages. Languages can handle a bit of mangling. We're all trying to say the same stuff, using different codes - we CAN cut out much of the 'middle man'.

:D

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Pthagnar »

is your name henry?

what is your favourite interjection?

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by GrinningManiac »

Yng wrote:That's not really what the original guy was doing, though. You're inflecting verbs all over the place, for a start. And imposing English grammatical categories far more than you need to.
You're right. Only when I speak incorrect Spanish in the proper, predefined incorrect manner will I ever have a hope of learning the language. Soy sarcastico.

His point was that you don't need grammatical perfectness or a dictionary's worth of vocab. I'm fairly sure you all understood me and I have no idea how to form phrases in Spanish or even how to use its participles.

I think the problem with this forum has always been that it's far too focused on a kind of "grammatical ubermenschen" style of language-learning where you can only dare talk to someone if you know the 3rd class root declenasion of the imperative past participle and don't you dare try and explain something without knowing exactly how it conjugates.

I get that this is a linguistics forum so this is neither a bad thing nor an unexpected thing but I think that when it comes down to wanting to learn languages for the sake of communicating with people the way people seem to go about it on here is quite...well...slow. And inefficient. And boring to boot.

Languages can stand a bit of mangling. That's my new language-learning motto.

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by Yng »

AHIAebklghOS\;GHSGO'P;SGHO

I think there are a number of issues in this thread right here:

A) The original poster seems to think that when Zompist said you couldn't communicate perfectly with only 200 words, what Zompist meant was '200 words and hardly any knowledge of grammar will not serve as a base for language learning'. Which nobody has ever said.
B) He also seems to think that Spanish is a great example of this despite the fact that Spanish is latinate to the point that I, with very little knowledge of Spanish at all, can guess with reasonable accuracy at the meanings of even high-register, complex words simply on the basis of a significant English vocabulary.
C) Everyone seems to be getting all excited over this as if it is an AMAZING NEW METHOD OF LANGUAGE LEARNING. It isn't and there's nothing particularly obvious about it. This is just a slightly easier, cheating method of the classic language-learning mechanism for people who don't speak that language at all, which is 'learn words by pointing and exchanging sounds, continue using, form small vocabulary, work from there' (except in this case you're taking away the first few steps).
D) GrinningManiac, my point is that you are not doing what the original poster said, or proving anything except your lack of competence in Spanish. There's nothing wrong with butchering Spanish (or indeed with the OP's method for language learning, per se, although you're likely to miss out on all sorts of things that a more learn-basic-grammar-and-nuance-first method might help with), but you're just scattering inflections all over the place and using a participle in a way that would be confusing (if you instead learnt the citation forms, which seems to be the OP's plan, then you'd get a lot further).

As I say, there is nothing wrong with this as a basis for further learning, although I don't see on the other hand how it is any better than learning how to express yourself in broad terms to start off with. To pretend, however, that you have proven that minimalist language works for all expressive purposes, as opposed to a medium through which less minimalist expression can be achieved, is to be incorrect.
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar

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Re: The Rosenfelder Challenge

Post by ashmoonfruit »

Yes. The grinning maniac gets it. There's nothing wrong with being into grammar, but the joy of language SO includes communication, to say the least. When we communicate, language comes alive - and this happens when we utter words, whether they conform to grammatical rules or not. Babies learn words first, and learn correct grammar later (if ever).

Ah, I can't wait to get back to wifi-land. This discussion has a long way to go. :D

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