Samstag vs. Sonnabend

[Viktor77]

I'm curious which form of German Saturday, Samstag or Sonnabend, was used in the Third Reich. Of course, no government has complete influence over dialectal differences, but surely the Third Reich government and Hitler had a preference. I would assume they would have used Sonnabend seeing as Samstag refers to the Sabbath which is ultimately a Jewish word and concept. And perhaps the GDR used Sonnabend for similar reasons, to distance themselves from the religious connotations of Samstag?

I did hear once one claim that the Third Reich popularised Samstag, which would shock me. I've tried Googling this but I can't find anything useful in English. Perhaps there are good sources in German but I cannot read German.

[linguoboy]

There's a crackpot theory that Samstag derives from *S'Ambeths Tag, Ambeth being the name of a mediaeval saint who is supposed to represent the survival of a Germanic cult of the triune goddess. I have no idea if the Nazis were aware of this explanation, let alone whether it influenced their policy, but the point is that you can find a (barely) plausible explanation to justify whatever it is you decide to do if you look for it hard enough.

[Viktor77]

There's a crackpot theory that Samstag derives from *S'Ambeths Tag, Ambeth being the name of a mediaeval saint who is supposed to represent the survival of a Germanic cult of the triune goddess. I have no idea if the Nazis were aware of this explanation, let alone whether it influenced their policy, but the point is that you can find a (barely) plausible explanation to justify whatever it is you decide to do if you look for it hard enough.

Alrighty, but which did the Third Reich use then? Samstag?

[linguoboy]

Alrighty, but which did the Third Reich use then? Samstag?

Probably both, given that its leaders came from all over Germany.

Seriously, why do you care? Or is Eddyish trolling your new hobby?

[Viktor77]

Alrighty, but which did the Third Reich use then? Samstag?

Probably both, given that its leaders came from all over Germany.

Seriously, why do you care? Or is Eddyish trolling your new hobby?

I'm curious. Sonnabend, for example, is popular in East Germany. I would like to know if that is because those Germans living there just happen to have it in their dialect or that is because East Germany used in it all official documentation and in education because of its association (or lack thereof) and thus when the GDR fell, the people of East Germany preserved it in their dialects. So the question is, did the GDR purposedly use Sonnabend because its etymology is distant from religion, or was it just that Sonnabend was the form used in the area which became East Germany (so another question is, which was used in West Berlin, Samstag or Sonnabend?)

Hitler controlled education, so he could very well have had a standard or a preference for one or the other. Hitler was born in Austria, and Austria uses Samstag, but perhaps he knew of the popular etymology of Samstag (from Hebrew Sabbatha) and had a preference for Sonnabend.

And then there's that unattributed claim that Hitler propularized Samstag. The only reason I can see him doing that is because he was Austrian. And this would imply Sonnabend being the more common term pre-Third Reich.

[linguoboy]

I'm curious. Sonnabend, for example, is popular in East Germany. I would like to know if that is because those Germans living there just happen to have it in their dialect

The answer to that question is, "Yes."

[Viktor77]

I'm curious. Sonnabend, for example, is popular in East Germany. I would like to know if that is because those Germans living there just happen to have it in their dialect

The answer to that question is, "Yes."

Lovely maps, and great date, 1940, helps a lot.

So what you're telling me is that in a country with two distinct forms of Saturday, no government has ever tried to popularize one form over the other for reasons relating to the etymology of the form itself? So what is used in official government documents now? Are two versions created?

[Travis B.]

We have one Eddy already. We do not need more.

[Viktor77]

We have one Eddy already. We do not need more.

What is Eddy about this? I'm asking a legit question, did the government ever have any influence in which form was used? It's not like there is no historical precedent for a government trying to influence a State's language. It's a perfectly innocent question....

[Pthagnar]

yes, it is.

[linguoboy]

So what you're telling me is that in a country with two distinct forms of Saturday, no government has ever tried to popularize one form over the other for reasons relating to the etymology of the form itself?

Not to my knowledge, no.

So what is used in official government documents now? Are two versions created?

Why would two versions be created? Does the US government create one set of regulations for people who say "gym shoes", another for people who say "tennis shoes", and a third for people who say "sneakers"?

Switzerland and Austria use Samstag exclusively. I'm not sure what Germany does; I don't read bureaucratic paperwork for fun. Why don't you try Googling?

Edit: I just want to the homepage for the German parliament and searched both "Sonnabend" and "Samstag". Result: 43 pages of hits for the former and 164 for the latter. Does that tell you what you think you needed to know?

[Travis B.]

My question is why did Viktor think this was an issue in the first place...

[Viktor77]

My question is why did Viktor think this was an issue in the first place...

Because Saturday is a pretty important word. It's certainly more important than sneakers. Having two distinct forms could create a lot of confusion for anyone who uses exclusively one form if the other form is used by the government. I'm sure Germans understand both, but nonetheless, I would think it at least a minor inconvenience.

[Travis B.]

My question is why did Viktor think this was an issue in the first place...

Because Saturday is a pretty important word. It's certainly more important than sneakers. Having two distinct forms could create a lot of confusion for anyone who uses exclusively one form if the other form is used by the government. I'm sure Germans understand both, but nonetheless, I would think it at least a minor inconvenience.

But lots of terms have synonyms, and we generally do not see governments officially legislating on them. Even with regard to established standard languages, they typically contain plenty of synonyms.

Were you thinking that they would for some reason decide to weed out all synonyms just because they were the Third Reich? And then, why would they have cared specifically about Saturday of all things?

[Viktor77]

Were you thinking that they would for some reason decide to weed out all synonyms just because they were the Third Reich? And then, why would they have cared specifically about Saturday of all things?

Because Saturday is an important word, and its origin is most likely the Sabbath, which is a Jewish word and tradition. And in the new Aryan race, why would you want such an important word as Saturday associated with Judaism when a popular synonym exists that does not have these connotations? That was my logic. Likewise, I figured that was why the GDR had used Sonnabend, because it is distant from the religious Sabbath, and distancing oneself from organised religion was a tenant of Communism.

It seemed pretty reasonable to me. I mean, the government controls education and it's not as if educational standards are free of politics. Why couldn't it be possible Hitler would want to cleanse the German language of such a common word with a Jewish link?

[Viktor77]

Besides, the whole reason Sonnabend came into the German language was because Saint Boniface wanted to strike the Hebrew word for Saturday from the language and replace it with a suitable Christian alternative. That's an example of exactly what I'm talking about just a very old example!

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfis ... 40668.html

Also, how then is Sonnabend distinguished as an abbreviation? For example, here is Samstag: Mo, Di, Mi, Do, Fr, Sa, So. But Sonnabend would be the same as Sonntag, unless it is Son.

[Travis B.]

Did you even just try googling for, say, Nazi, Samstag, and Sonnabend together? Absolutely nothing comes up except things on Nazi and anti-Nazi protests that happen to be on Saturday.

[Travis B.]

Besides, the whole reason Sonnabend came into the German language was because Saint Boniface wanted to strike the Hebrew word for Saturday from the language and replace it with a suitable Christian alternative. That's an example of exactly what I'm talking about just a very old example!

Well Christianity has messed with the days of the week in Germany in the case of replacing Wodenstag with Mittwoch as well. But that is not surprising considering that the days of the week in Germanic languages have been historically linked with religion in many cases.

[Viktor77]

Did you even just try googling for, say, Nazi, Samstag, and Sonnabend together? Absolutely nothing comes up except things on Nazi and anti-Nazi protests that happen to be on Saturday.

Just a claim about Hitler popularizing Samstag. Which seems to be unfounded.

I'd like to know if there is a so-called industry/internet standard? It seems with these words with many synonyms one of the synonyms wins out online and in production of goods. For example, on the industry standard, if I ordered a German planner, and say the company creating the planner was based in Berlin (though not necessarily the production), would I see Samstag or Sonnabend or even Samstag/Sonnabend? Likewise online. As LB pointed out, the government seems to favor Samstag. And Google.de favours Samstag 1 billion results to 4 million for Sonnabend which is pretty significant. For example, in Google.de images, I can't find a single "wochenplan" with Sonnabend, which is making me question how popular Sonnabend really is.

[linguoboy]

Because Saturday is an important word, and its origin is most likely the Sabbath, which is a Jewish word and tradition.

You missed the entire point of my example. You are vastly overestimating ordinary people's understanding of etymology and even more vastly underestimating their capacity (and that of the Nazis in particular) for believing ill-founded guff when it suits them. There was no reason for the Nazis to eliminate Samstag because if anyone had objected to it on the grounds that it was tainted with Jew cooties, they could easily have invented some bullshit alternative explanation. In fact, such an explanation was invented. (A popular theory deriving the Bethen from Germanic goddesses existed in 1936; I haven't been able to find a date for the notion that Samstag is derived from the name of one of them.) That doesn't prove that any prominent Nazis subscribed to it, but it does demonstrate how easily this is done.

All educated Germans understand both words, just as all educated English-speakers know that boss means the same thing as supervisor even if they only ever use one word or the other.

Also, how then is Sonnabend distinguished as an abbreviation? For example, here is Samstag: Mo, Di, Mi, Do, Fr, Sa, So. But Sonnabend would be the same as Sonntag, unless it is Son.

Sa for Sonnabend. Or, when using three-letter abbreviations, Sbd.

[Viktor77]

Because Saturday is an important word, and its origin is most likely the Sabbath, which is a Jewish word and tradition.

You missed the entire point of my example. You are vastly overestimating ordinary people's understanding of etymology and even more vastly underestimating their capacity (and that of the Nazis in particular) for believing ill-founded guff when it suits them. There was no reason for the Nazis to eliminate Samstag because if anyone had objected to it on the grounds that it was tainted with Jew cooties, they could easily have invented some bullshit alternative explanation. In fact, such an explanation was invented. (A popular theory deriving the Bethen from Germanic goddesses existed in 1936; I haven't been able to find a date for the notion that Samstag is derived from the name of one of them.) That doesn't prove that any prominent Nazis subscribed to it, but it does demonstrate how easily this is done.

All educated Germans understand both words, just as all educated English-speakers know that boss means the same thing as supervisor even if they only ever use one word or the other.

Alright, point taken.

But I just asked on Yahoo! Answers Germany and everyone is saying Samstag. So far one person has said Sonnabend is only in written language. I mean, I asked my friend from Germany who lives smackdab in Sonnabend country according to your map and he said Samstag. So my question to you is, since you know German far better than I do, do a lot of people actually use Sonnabend? Because it sure isn't looking like it....

[linguoboy]

But I just asked on Yahoo! Answers Germany and everyone is saying Samstag. So far one person has said Sonnabend is only in written language. I mean, I asked my friend from Germany who lives smackdab in Sonnabend country according to your map and he said Samstag. So my question to you is, since you know German far better than I do, do a lot of people actually use Sonnabend? Because it sure isn't looking like it....

I asked one of my coworkers, who is a native of Thuringia but relocated to the Rhineland before coming to the States. She says she knew only Sonnabend growing up and still uses it with her family, but that she had to learn Samstag (along with many other unfamiliar words) after the move. Besides her sister (who lives in Bonn), the person she seems to talk German the most with is a coworker from Bavaria, who I imagine she defers to and says Samstag.

I learned German in the far southwest, of course, so I naturally say Samstag (bzw. Samschdig). Sonnabend is so foreign to my speech that I always want to pronounce/spell it *Sonnenabend and end up having to correct myself.

[Vuvuzela]

So what is used in official government documents now? Are two versions created?

The current German government seems to use both, but "Samstag"more frequently. Source:
theirwebsite, which provides a total of 288 articles using either one or the other. Sonnabend is used only 6.25% of the time.
Not sure if we'd need a bigger corpus to draw any conclusions, but there you go.

[Viktor77]

Thanks for the responses. I guess there's no real answer unless we ask more Germans themselves.

[hwhatting]

Thanks for the responses. I guess there's no real answer unless we ask more Germans themselves.

Well, what you'd actually need is an investigation on which word was used in Nazi Germany... I poked around bit and it seems, that both were used. From 1934 - 1936, Saturday was a day "off school" that was reserved for the Hitlerjugend (HJ), the Nazi youth organization. The decree introducing it has "Sonnanbend", a report in a regional HJ paper from the Rhine area has "Samstag". So at least some Nazi documents used "Samstag"; the usage probably reflects personal or regional preferences, not a party line. But that's certainly concluded on a very small sample.
My personal usage is Samstag, and I've always thought of Sonnabend as an "official" word. The official use in the GDR was simply due to the fact that most of its territorry was in the "Sonnabend" part of Germany.