Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phonemes?

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by clawgrip »

finlay wrote:As for the phonemicity of Japanese palatalized stops, it's definitely true that the thinking is vastly influenced by the writing system, and I think I'd agree at least for t vs ch, but even then many Japanese people mispronounce ti as chi in English. They seem to have more trouble correctly pronouncing di than ti, too (many people call the city Ejimbara rather than Edinburgh, for instance - but then, this is almost certainly coming from the katakana spelling of the city, which they take as the "correct" pronunciation). But che and she (ie, チェ and シェ) are pretty well-established, now, and they only occur in loanwords, and people don't have trouble pronouncing them at all. They have much greater trouble distinguishing si and shi, and I'm partly convinced that katakana has something to do with this (because there's no スィ in general use). For native words, you can basically argue that they're not phonemic, but it doesn't work for the modern language with all its English loanwords.

More accurately, you can argue that there's a neutralization or something between [tj] and [tɕ], because I'm pretty sure you can find somewhere where [tɕ] clearly is derived synchronically from [tj].

As for /ts/, yeah they have a few loanwords now like pizza as ピッツァ (instead of ピザ), but I think I've heard [pitswa] for this. And with f, again they have a way of writing it in katakana, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will then be able to distinguish it from [h] or [hw] or something.
The addition of these phonemes to the language is occurring between the generations of speakers that are alive right now. Older people might have trouble with [ti di ɸi ʦi] etc. and pronounce them as [ʨi ʥi ɸui ʦui or ʨi], but for probably almost everyone around 60 and younger, the first three of those are pretty well established, e.g. pātī, supagetti, patishe, birudingu, kōdinēto, figyua sukēto, fāsuto, kafe, forudā (this one, "folder," actually has a minimal pair, horudā "holder"; they used to be identical, but "folder" shifted to match English more closely). /ʦ/ I think is more recent than the others, and still at least somewhat non-standard, which I guess is the original topic, but I think that if you knock a couple decades off of my original age limit you will find most people are fine with [ʦa ʦi ʦe ʦo]. [si] and [zi], on the other hand, as you mentioned, show no sign of entering the language.

The pronunciation of Edinburgh (or any older borrowing) is not really a good test for the existence of the phoneme, because in Japanese Ejimbara is simply the established pronunciation, and is unlikely to change regardless of the phonemic state of /di/. It's a lot like how in English we pronounce Paris with an /s/ at the end: we're capable of dropping it, but we aren't going to because that pronunciation is established. We need to look to more modern borrowings to see how they are realized.

/di/:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYAFtcnDiY#t=3m35s (edī rōson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYL2-ZRO_co#t=0m27s (diran)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYL2-ZRO_co (komedian)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aid1PHL6kOg (ōdishon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7BdtRw4xoI#t=0m24s (kōdinēto)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7BdtRw4xoI#t=0m48s (uedingu)

User avatar
Pole, the
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Pole, the »

finlay wrote:Saying big words doesn't mean you've actually told us anything about the sounds. It's a valid question: we all know the symbols and their descriptions on the IPA, but how do they actually differ? It's a difficult question to answer because they mean different things for all the different languages that use them. Perhaps the most useful answer is that [ɕ] tends to be produced at the same POA as [ç] but with a different tongue shape, similar to how [θ] and [s] can be produced at the same POA with a different tongue shape. Or you can say [ɕ] is the sibilant counterpart to [ç]. The problem is that generally in languages that use ɕ instead of ʃ for their <sh> phoneme do so for traditional reasons or for the most typical phonetic realization of the phoneme, because basically they sound very similar and will be interpreted as one or the other depending on what language you speak and what phonemes it has. Like if I pronounced a Japanese word with an English-like sh (ie, [ʃ] instead of [ɕ]), maybe I have a slight foreign accent but it's not something that impedes communication in any way. Likewise the other way round. If you want a perfect pronunciation, English sh is secondarily rounded whereas Japanese sh is not.
Still, in some languages they are recognized as one, in others they are considered different.

On the acoustic side, the difference can be described as between an high-frequency [ɕ] and a mid- or low-frequency [ʃ] (labialization can be thought as a way of further lowering of that frequency, similarly with velarization or retracting the point of articulation).
On the articulatory side, it's between [ɕ] pronounced usually with a flat tounge, more fronted and more palatalized and [ʃ] pronounced with more retracted tongue.
On the auditory side, it can be described as the difference between more whistling sound of [ɕ] and more rushing sound of [ʃ].
finlay wrote:The other thing is that virtually all the languages that actually have a distinction between something like [ɕ] and something like [ʃ] customarily denote them as [ɕ] and [ʂ] instead – perhaps just making them maximally distinct?
Maybe that's linguists, not languages?
All dictionaries I got denote the Polish postalveolars as /tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ/. Well, even if we agree to use a disting marking for them (/tʂ dʐ ʂ ʐ/ or /ts̠ dz̠ s̠ z̠/, I prefer the latter), yet they realize as palatalized postalveolar sounds, [tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ] known from English, in certain circumstances, cf. czip [tʃip] vs cip [tɕip].
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.

User avatar
Burke
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:55 am
Location: Red Sox

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Burke »

Greek has both on the islands, but /tɕ/ is an allophone of /k/, not a full phoneme.
Formerly a vegetable

User avatar
Niedokonany
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 pm
Location: Kliwia Czarna

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Niedokonany »

Naeboşkoventi wrote:
Xiądz Faust wrote:Polish: ... /t͡s̠/ is (5) from the first regressive palatalization of *k, also from (6) *stj ( → ʃt͡ʃ → s̠t͡s̠).
I assume you mean <cz> and <szcz>? (I've never seen them described like that ... only as either tʃ ʃtʃ or tʂ ʂtʂ.)

FWIW, from what I've heard, both in person (immigrants tho, so it's possible their pronunciation is contaminated) and from online recordings, I think I'd call them apical postalveolars but, INANS.
Well because in the IPA [ʃ] is 'palato-alveolar' and retroflex is variously defined (Polish sz/cz/ż/dż may or may not count) I consider [s̠] (backed [s]) to be a less misleading way to transcribe a postalveolar sibilant. Yes, they are apical(-ish) non-patalized (open-rounded, velarized) postalveolar sibilants for me.
uciekajcie od światów konających

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by finlay »

[ʃ] in (my) english is not apical, though - my tongue points downwards. by using the symbol ʂ you emphasise its apicalness. it's well established in linguistics that polish "really" has ɕ and ʂ, but it is more useful to write ɕ (for a "new" sound) and ʃ (for a sound that is closer to the english sound).

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Travis B. »

My English /ʃ/ has both (non-apical) palatoalveolar and alveolopalatal realizations, and I have always identified with the former realization with the symbol [ʃ], with [ʂ] being identified with both apical and subapical postalveolars. Yet at the same time I am used to seeing [ʃ] being used to mark apical postalveolars, as in Polish, simply due to being a more familiar symbol to many than [ʂ] is.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
Pole, the
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Pole, the »

finlay wrote:[ʃ] in (my) english is not apical, though - my tongue points downwards.
Well, the same is true for the postalv. in my Polish, so dunno.
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.

User avatar
Niedokonany
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 pm
Location: Kliwia Czarna

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Niedokonany »

/ʃ/ seems more familiar because it fits western European (=normal, civilized, Christian etc.) languages. When you check how it's defined in the IPA chart you realize the symbol is just unsuited for Polish and its use is misleading, you could easily get a wrong idea about the actual pronunciation. /ʂ/ is better but then there are those people who argue it should only be used for the Indian-type retroflexes.
Besides, going by what's traditional/established/writ in linguistics much too often takes an almost religious extent, especially in all the more backwoodsy environments.
uciekajcie od światów konających

User avatar
Drydic
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
Contact:

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Drydic »

Xiądz Faust wrote:/ʃ/ seems more familiar because it fits western European (=normal, civilized, Christian etc.) languages. When you check how it's defined in the IPA chart you realize the symbol is just unsuited for Polish and its use is misleading, you could easily get a wrong idea about the actual pronunciation. /ʂ/ is better but then there are those people who argue it should only be used for the Indian-type retroflexes.
Besides, going by what's traditional/established/writ in linguistics much too often takes an almost religious extent, especially in all the more backwoodsy environments.
Then you get the people who think, because the retroflex letters are used, that the sounds are identical to the indian retroflexes. It's a pretty crappy catch-22.
Image Image
Common Zein Scratchpad & other Stuffs! OMG AN ACTUAL CONPOST WTFBBQ

Formerly known as Drydic.

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Hallow XIII »

Well that's kind of the transcriber's fault in these cases. There are diacritics for distinguishing between different retroflex tongue shapes...
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by finlay »

No there aren't, and the IPA guidelines tell you not to use them anyway unless it's necessary to the context.

User avatar
Haplogy
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:14 am
Location: Dutchland

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Haplogy »

Both Polish and Russian have both of those. Other Slavic languages probably do as well.
Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil!

User avatar
Drydic
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
Contact:

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Drydic »

HERE WE GO AGAIN

FUCK
Image Image
Common Zein Scratchpad & other Stuffs! OMG AN ACTUAL CONPOST WTFBBQ

Formerly known as Drydic.

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Ser »

I told you.

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Salmoneus »

Hey guys, i'm not sure, but I think it's possible that maybe Polish may make this contrast?
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

User avatar
Pole, the
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Pole, the »

Salmoneus wrote:Hey guys, i'm not sure, but I think it's possible that maybe Polish may make this contrast?
YU FARGAT RUSSKI!!!
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.

cromulant
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by cromulant »

Esmelthien wrote:Both Polish and Russian have both of those. Other Slavic languages probably do as well.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

User avatar
Haplogy
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:14 am
Location: Dutchland

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Haplogy »

B-but I thought I was c-contributing ;-;
Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil!

User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by clawgrip »

Esmelthien wrote:B-but I thought I was c-contributing ;-;
Drydic Guy wrote:
zompist wrote:You can add Polishto the list.
Dewrad, 5 and a half hours ago, wrote:Polish contrasts /ts tɕ tʂ/. Serbo-Croatian /ts tɕ tʃ/. Russian just /ts tɕ/.
Am I the only person who's actually reading this thread?

cromulant
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by cromulant »

That's just the tip of the iceberg of Polish affricate discussion in this thread. At least four posters other than the ones clawgrip cited have written about the Polish affricates; two of them at length, one of whom is actually named "Pole."

User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by clawgrip »

I almost made an exhaustive list of all the posts talking about Polish but then decided not to because that's a bit dumb really.

cromulant
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by cromulant »

I went through the same thought process.

User avatar
Burke
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:55 am
Location: Red Sox

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Burke »

clawgrip wrote:I almost made an exhaustive list of all the posts talking about Polish but then decided not to because that's a bit dumb really.
If you make it a pretty and animated gif, I think that would go over well. Who doesn't like a good gif?
Formerly a vegetable

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Hm.
What about Polish guise?
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Post by clawgrip »

przebranie

Post Reply