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zompist bboard • View topic - Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phonemes?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:08 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:54 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Greek has both on the islands, but /tɕ/ is an allophone of /k/, not a full phoneme.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:14 pm 
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[ʃ] in (my) english is not apical, though - my tongue points downwards. by using the symbol ʂ you emphasise its apicalness. it's well established in linguistics that polish "really" has ɕ and ʂ, but it is more useful to write ɕ (for a "new" sound) and ʃ (for a sound that is closer to the english sound).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:31 pm 
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My English /ʃ/ has both (non-apical) palatoalveolar and alveolopalatal realizations, and I have always identified with the former realization with the symbol [ʃ], with [ʂ] being identified with both apical and subapical postalveolars. Yet at the same time I am used to seeing [ʃ] being used to mark apical postalveolars, as in Polish, simply due to being a more familiar symbol to many than [ʂ] is.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:05 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:02 pm 
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/ʃ/ seems more familiar because it fits western European (=normal, civilized, Christian etc.) languages. When you check how it's defined in the IPA chart you realize the symbol is just unsuited for Polish and its use is misleading, you could easily get a wrong idea about the actual pronunciation. /ʂ/ is better but then there are those people who argue it should only be used for the Indian-type retroflexes.
Besides, going by what's traditional/established/writ in linguistics much too often takes an almost religious extent, especially in all the more backwoodsy environments.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:48 am 
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Well that's kind of the transcriber's fault in these cases. There are diacritics for distinguishing between different retroflex tongue shapes...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:00 am 
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No there aren't, and the IPA guidelines tell you not to use them anyway unless it's necessary to the context.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:07 am 
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Both Polish and Russian have both of those. Other Slavic languages probably do as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:56 am 
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HERE WE GO AGAIN

FUCK

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:23 pm 
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I told you.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Hey guys, i'm not sure, but I think it's possible that maybe Polish may make this contrast?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:25 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:10 am 
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B-but I thought I was c-contributing ;-;

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:50 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:34 am 
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That's just the tip of the iceberg of Polish affricate discussion in this thread. At least four posters other than the ones clawgrip cited have written about the Polish affricates; two of them at length, one of whom is actually named "Pole."


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:30 am 
Smeric
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I almost made an exhaustive list of all the posts talking about Polish but then decided not to because that's a bit dumb really.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:36 am 
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I went through the same thought process.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:54 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Hm.
What about Polish guise?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:06 pm 
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przebranie


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