Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:28 pm
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Catalan has both /ts/ and /tɕ/:LoneWolf wrote:As the title says, are there any languages that have both /ts/ and /tɕ/ as distinct phonemes (or anything similar to this)?
That would be something like /swi/. /si/ is katakanized セィ (when people bother, which is basically never).finlay wrote:They have much greater trouble distinguishing si and shi, and I'm partly convinced that katakana has something to do with this (because there's no スィ in general use).
Pretty sure スィ is the standard for that, but I would guess many Japanese speakers would not necessarily be particularly familiar with it anyway. I also get the impression that Japanese monolinguals who have no ability/interest in other languages are not even necessarily aware that these sounds, <si> and <shi>, and <zi> and <ji>, are distinct at all. This awareness is only beginning to be realized for /ʦɯ/ vs. /tɯ/, though it will still take a while to gain universal currency. For example, Twitter, which is less than 10 years old, is still rendered ツイッター [ʦɯitːaː], but on the other hand, KAT-TUN, a boy band founded in 2001, is written and pronounced カトゥーン [katɯːɴ]. I am pretty sure /t/ vs. /ʦ/ will become more accepted over the next couple decades, just as /ti/ vs. /ʨi/ and /d/ vs. /ʥi/ already have.Qwynegold wrote:That would be something like /swi/. /si/ is katakanized セィ (when people bother, which is basically never).finlay wrote:They have much greater trouble distinguishing si and shi, and I'm partly convinced that katakana has something to do with this (because there's no スィ in general use).
It's a combination, to be honest. There's what clawgrip said, plus the tendency of Japanese people to assume that English spelling doesn't make any sense, at least with the vowels, so I'm pretty sure many of them just learn the spelling as an arbitrary series of letters and remember pronunciation by their gloss in katakana, which is a terrible way to do it. Later they seem to view this as the "correct" pronunciation, somehow.Serafín wrote:Finlay, why do you believe it's because of Katakana and not simply Japanese phonology? It seems obvious to me they would have problems with [si] vs. [ʃi].
& their write.finlay wrote:There's what clawgrip said, plus the tendency of Japanese people to assume that English spelling doesn't make any sense,
Terrible. It makes quite a bit of sense, historically. Just not enough to justify not reforming it drastically. Unfortunately the RAAAR NO CHANGE and Myriad Englishes factors prevent this.Pole wrote:& their write.finlay wrote:There's what clawgrip said, plus the tendency of Japanese people to assume that English spelling doesn't make any sense,
Know there naught.Pole wrote:& their write.finlay wrote:There's what clawgrip said, plus the tendency of Japanese people to assume that English spelling doesn't make any sense,
I doubt whether /tɕ/ is a phoneme there, rather than a devoiced /dʑ/.Izambri wrote:Catalan has both /ts/ and /tɕ/:
gotets [gu'tɛts] vs. goteig [gu'tɛtɕ]
mats [mats] vs. maig [matɕ]
peuets [pə'wɛts] vs. peueig [pə'wɛtɕ]
fats [fats] vs. faig [fatɕ]
puts [puts] vs. puig [putɕ]
etc.
No, the other way.jal wrote:I doubt whether /tɕ/ is a phoneme there, rather than a devoiced /dʑ/.Izambri wrote:Catalan has both /ts/ and /tɕ/:
gotets [gu'tɛts] vs. goteig [gu'tɛtɕ]
mats [mats] vs. maig [matɕ]
peuets [pə'wɛts] vs. peueig [pə'wɛtɕ]
fats [fats] vs. faig [fatɕ]
puts [puts] vs. puig [putɕ]
etc.
JAL
Ok, but phonemes that only occur at the end of a word? I wouldn't think it impossible, but highly unlikely at best. Suspicious, I'd say.Izambri wrote:No, the other way.
They are at the end of a word, so the sound is clearly unvoiced, and becomes voiced when followed by a vowel: faig [fatɕ] vs. faig alt ['fadʑˌaɫ].
No, in Catalan /tɕ/ doesn't occur only at the end of a word.jal wrote:Ok, but phonemes that only occur at the end of a word? I wouldn't think it impossible, but highly unlikely at best. Suspicious, I'd say.Izambri wrote:No, the other way.
They are at the end of a word, so the sound is clearly unvoiced, and becomes voiced when followed by a vowel: faig [fatɕ] vs. faig alt ['fadʑˌaɫ].
JAL
Second-best contribution to the thread so far. This one is first.2+3 clusivity wrote:I think everyone missed the low hanging fruit--i.e. almost the entire northwestern caucasian family:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubykh_phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz_phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_language
Drydic Guy wrote:I don't see Polish on there, I wonder if it has these sounds
Most (all?) Slavic languages besides Russian that have /tɕ/ have /tʃ/ too. I think.cromulant wrote:Second-best contribution to the thread so far. This one is first.2+3 clusivity wrote:I think everyone missed the low hanging fruit--i.e. almost the entire northwestern caucasian family:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubykh_phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz_phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_language