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Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phonemes?

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:45 pm
by LoneWolf
As the title says, are there any languages that have both /ts/ and /tɕ/ as distinct phonemes (or anything similar to this)? I'm thinking because both are not phonetically very different most of these would tend to merge relatively quickly. I know Japanese and Korean has both [ts] and [tɕ] but they are allophones which is not what I'm looking for.

Also if you know of any such languages, I would like to know what was the historical phonology behind the development of both phonemes.
Thanks in advance!

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:51 pm
by Aurora Rossa
Mandarin Chinese has a three way distinction between /ts tʂ tɕ/ so yes, it distinguishes them at least.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:55 pm
by Hallow XIII
Mandarin actually has a three-way distinction: [ts] [tʃ] [tɕ/tʲ] (not sure which one it's parsed as) and [dz] [dʒ] [dʑ/dʲ], indicated in pinyin as c, ch, q and z, zh, j, respectively. So, yeah, not necessarily.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:52 pm
by LoneWolf
Hallow XIII wrote:Mandarin actually has a three-way distinction: [ts] [tʃ] [tɕ/tʲ] (not sure which one it's parsed as) and [dz] [dʒ] [dʑ/dʲ], indicated in pinyin as c, ch, q and z, zh, j, respectively. So, yeah, not necessarily.


Interesting. What do you mean by 'not necessarily'? Are they not phonemes? Also does anyone know the precise details how these affricates developped? Wikipedia says that the alveolo-palatal consonants [t͡ɕ, t͡ɕʰ, ɕ] arose historically from a merger of the alveolar consonants [t͡s, t͡sʰ, s] and the velar consonants [k kʰ x] before high front vowels and glides. But what lead to the development of the original Old Chinese affricates [t͡s, t͡sʰ, s] in the first place?

I'd like to see some more examples from other languages if there are any.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:07 pm
by Hallow XIII
*looks at Wikipedia*

Oh. Aspiration, not voicing, and those are retroflex. xP Well, in my defence the difference is hard to hear when you're not conscious of it.

Anyway, what I meant is "no, these phonemes are not necessarily candidates for quick mutual absorption".

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:16 pm
by Dewrad
Polish contrasts /ts tɕ tʂ/. Serbo-Croatian /ts tɕ tʃ/. Russian just /ts tɕ/.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:48 pm
by clawgrip
LoneWolf wrote:As the title says, are there any languages that have both /ts/ and /tɕ/ as distinct phonemes (or anything similar to this)? I'm thinking because both are not phonetically very different most of these would tend to merge relatively quickly. I know Japanese and Korean has both [ts] and [tɕ] but they are allophones which is not what I'm looking for.

It is not really allophonic in Japanese: /tsɯ/ and /tɕɯ/ are contrastive.
Also, due to loan words and representation of foreign names, you can find contrasts between other vowels as well (though some older speakers may not always be able to differentiate).

example:
通貨 tsūka /tsɯːka/ - curency
中華 chūka /tɕɯːka/ - China, Chinese

Edit: In fact:

kata /kata/ "shoulder"
ツァーリ tsāri /tsaːɺi/ "Tsar"
お茶 ocha /otɕa/ "tea"

スパゲティ supagetti /sɯpagetti/ "spaghetti"
ヴェネツィア Benetsia /benetsia/ "Venice"
michi /mitɕi/ "road; way"

バントゥー Bantū /bantɯː/ "Bantu"
勝つ katsu /katsɯː/ "win"
昆虫 konchū /kontɕɯː/ "insect"

両手 ryōte /ɺjoːte/ "both hands"
ツェツェバエ tsetsebae /tsetsebae/ "tsetse fly"
チェコ Cheko /tɕeko/ "Czech Republic"

hato /hato/ "pigeon"
ツォンガ Tsonga /tsoɴɡa/ "Tsonga" (surname)
部長 buchō /bɯtɕoː/ "boss"

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:21 pm
by Ser
Hallow XIII wrote:Mandarin actually has a three-way distinction: [ts] [tʃ] [tɕ/tʲ] (not sure which one it's parsed as) and [dz] [dʒ] [dʑ/dʲ], indicated in pinyin as c, ch, q and z, zh, j, respectively. So, yeah, not necessarily.
No, [tsʰ tɕʰ tʂʰ] vs. [ts~dz tɕ~dʑ tʂ~dʐ]. You didn't even bother to check the article on Mandarin phonology on Wikipedia...? :|

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:26 pm
by Drydic
Serafín wrote:
Hallow XIII wrote:Mandarin actually has a three-way distinction: [ts] [tʃ] [tɕ/tʲ] (not sure which one it's parsed as) and [dz] [dʒ] [dʑ/dʲ], indicated in pinyin as c, ch, q and z, zh, j, respectively. So, yeah, not necessarily.
No, [tsʰ tɕʰ tʂʰ] vs. [ts~dz tɕ~dʑ tʂ~dʐ]. You didn't even bother to check the article on Mandarin phonology on Wikipedia...? :|


Hallow XIII, two hours before you posted that, wrote:*looks at Wikipedia*

Oh. Aspiration, not voicing, and those are retroflex. xP Well, in my defence the difference is hard to hear when you're not conscious of it.

Anyway, what I meant is "no, these phonemes are not necessarily candidates for quick mutual absorption".

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:48 pm
by Ser
And I didn't even bother to check this thread apparently.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:54 pm
by cromulant
Three of the NW Caucasian languages (Ubykh, Abkhaz and Abaza) contrast them, unsurprisingly.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:55 pm
by Vardelm
Tibetan has them.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:54 pm
by zompist
You can add Polishto the list.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:06 pm
by Drydic
zompist wrote:You can add Polishto the list.


Dewrad, 5 and a half hours ago, wrote:Polish contrasts /ts tɕ tʂ/. Serbo-Croatian /ts tɕ tʃ/. Russian just /ts tɕ/.


Am I the only person who's actually reading this thread?

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:52 pm
by Ser
Yes.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:14 am
by Drydic
well shit.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:37 am
by Click
LoneWolf wrote:Also if you know of any such languages, I would like to know what was the historical phonology behind the development of both phonemes.
Thanks in advance!


Dewrad wrote:Serbo-Croatian /ts tɕ tʃ/.

/ts/ comes from Slavic second palatalization, /tʃ/ from Slavic first palatalization, and /tɕ/ comes from iotation.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:14 pm
by Tropylium
Most Samic languages have /ts/ as well as a postalveolar affricate, usually broadly transcribed as /tʃ/ in IPA but in UPA analyses I've frequently seen č́ (c with caron and acute) which would equal [tɕ]. (There might be variation in the realization across the different Samic languages.) Both inherited from Proto-Samic, with /ts/ coming from Proto-Uralic *č [tʃ ~ tʂ]? and /tɕ/ from PU *ś [sʲ ~ ɕ]? and *ć [tsʲ ~ tɕ ~ c]?

Tundra Nenets, some dialects of it anyway, also has /ts/ versus /tɕ ~ tsʲ/, resulting from the fortition of /s/ and /ɕ ~ sʲ/ after voiceless consonants and, IIRC, nasals. (In most other Northern Samoyedic languages including Forest Nenets, the only affricate is [tɕ], found as a realization of /tʲ/.)

Standard (Khalkha) Mongolian according to some accounts also contrasts /ts/ and /tɕ/ though I've again more commonly seen this analyzed as /ts/ vs. /tsʲ/ or even /ts/ vs. /tʃ/.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:54 pm
by Niedokonany
Polish: /t͡s/ is (1) from the Slavic second regressive palatalization and (2) from the progressive palatalization (of *k in both instances), (3) also from Common Slavic *tj (an instance of iotation), /t͡ɕ/ is (4) from *t before a Common Slavic front vowel, /t͡s̠/ is (5) from the first regressive palatalization of *k, also from (6) *stj ( → ʃt͡ʃ → s̠t͡s̠).

Russian: /t͡s/ -(1), (2), /t͡ɕ/ (3), (5). As illustrated, the similar phonemes in individual Slavic langs don't always map each other etymologically.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:35 pm
by Pole, the
clawgrip wrote:
LoneWolf wrote:As the title says, are there any languages that have both /ts/ and /tɕ/ as distinct phonemes (or anything similar to this)? I'm thinking because both are not phonetically very different most of these would tend to merge relatively quickly. I know Japanese and Korean has both [ts] and [tɕ] but they are allophones which is not what I'm looking for.

It is not really allophonic in Japanese: /tsɯ/ and /tɕɯ/ are contrastive.
Also, due to loan words and representation of foreign names, you can find contrasts between other vowels as well (though some older speakers may not always be able to differentiate).

[..]

Well, isn't it analyzed as /tj/ (/tju/ &c.) most of the time?

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:43 pm
by Nortaneous
What's the difference between tɕ and tʃ?

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:00 pm
by clawgrip
Pole wrote:
clawgrip wrote:
LoneWolf wrote:As the title says, are there any languages that have both /ts/ and /tɕ/ as distinct phonemes (or anything similar to this)? I'm thinking because both are not phonetically very different most of these would tend to merge relatively quickly. I know Japanese and Korean has both [ts] and [tɕ] but they are allophones which is not what I'm looking for.

It is not really allophonic in Japanese: /tsɯ/ and /tɕɯ/ are contrastive.
Also, due to loan words and representation of foreign names, you can find contrasts between other vowels as well (though some older speakers may not always be able to differentiate).

[..]

Well, isn't it analyzed as /tj/ (/tju/ &c.) most of the time?

I've seen that analysis (including on Wikipedia), but I don't believe it to be a valid description of the modern language. No actual book teaching you how to speak Japanese will ever treat it that way because it is not a useful description of the actual language itself; it's just a feature of diachronics. The language categorically forbids /j/ before /i/ and /e/, meaning [tɕi] and [tɕe] cannot be analyzed as /tji/ and /tje/. I believe that the no /j/ before /i/ and /e/ rule is still in effect in the modern language, because the average Japanese speaker is utterly incapable of producing /ji/, and an attempt at /je/ usually results in /ie/. Also, since /tɕi/ and /tɕe/ contrast with /ti/ and /te/, they cannot be considered allophonic.

Analyzing /tɕ/ as /tj/ would result in a weird system where the otherwise unpronounceable sequences /ji/ and /je/ appear only after /t/, /d/, /s/ and /z/, and nowhere else at all in the language (and where /dj/ and /zj/ are pronounced identically). Recognizing /ʨ/, /ʥ/ and /ɕ/ as independent phonemes only requires imposing a couple simple phonotactic restrictions (no /j/ after /ʨ ʥ ɕ s/, no /i/ after /s/), whereas recognizing them as sequences requires exceedingly unwieldy rules (no /ji/ after /k ɡ s z n h b p m ɺ/ or at the beginning of a word, no /je/ after /k ɡ n h b p m ɺ/ or at the beginning of a word). Claiming that /tɕ/ is not a valid phoneme of Japanese because it can be traced to having originated from /tj/ is akin to saying that English does not have /ʒ/ because it can be traced to having originated from /zj/. For these reasons I say that yes, /ʨ/, /ʥ/ and /ɕ/ are independent phonemes.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:06 pm
by Pole, the
Nortaneous wrote:What's the difference between tɕ and tʃ?

The former is alveolo-palatal, whereas the latter is postalveolar and not palatal, but often palatalized.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:39 pm
by Boşkoventi
Xiądz Faust wrote:Polish: ... /t͡s̠/ is (5) from the first regressive palatalization of *k, also from (6) *stj ( → ʃt͡ʃ → s̠t͡s̠).

I assume you mean <cz> and <szcz>? (I've never seen them described like that ... only as either tʃ ʃtʃ or tʂ ʂtʂ.)

FWIW, from what I've heard, both in person (immigrants tho, so it's possible their pronunciation is contaminated) and from online recordings, I think I'd call them apical postalveolars but, INANS.

Re: Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phone

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:15 am
by finlay
Pole wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:What's the difference between tɕ and tʃ?

The former is alveolo-palatal, whereas the latter is postalveolar and not palatal, but often palatalized.

Saying big words doesn't mean you've actually told us anything about the sounds. It's a valid question: we all know the symbols and their descriptions on the IPA, but how do they actually differ? It's a difficult question to answer because they mean different things for all the different languages that use them. Perhaps the most useful answer is that [ɕ] tends to be produced at the same POA as [ç] but with a different tongue shape, similar to how [θ] and [s] can be produced at the same POA with a different tongue shape. Or you can say [ɕ] is the sibilant counterpart to [ç]. The problem is that generally in languages that use ɕ instead of ʃ for their <sh> phoneme do so for traditional reasons or for the most typical phonetic realization of the phoneme, because basically they sound very similar and will be interpreted as one or the other depending on what language you speak and what phonemes it has. Like if I pronounced a Japanese word with an English-like sh (ie, [ʃ] instead of [ɕ]), maybe I have a slight foreign accent but it's not something that impedes communication in any way. Likewise the other way round. If you want a perfect pronunciation, English sh is secondarily rounded whereas Japanese sh is not.

The other thing is that virtually all the languages that actually have a distinction between something like [ɕ] and something like [ʃ] customarily denote them as [ɕ] and [ʂ] instead – perhaps just making them maximally distinct?

As for the phonemicity of Japanese palatalized stops, it's definitely true that the thinking is vastly influenced by the writing system, and I think I'd agree at least for t vs ch, but even then many Japanese people mispronounce ti as chi in English. They seem to have more trouble correctly pronouncing di than ti, too (many people call the city Ejimbara rather than Edinburgh, for instance - but then, this is almost certainly coming from the katakana spelling of the city, which they take as the "correct" pronunciation). But che and she (ie, チェ and シェ) are pretty well-established, now, and they only occur in loanwords, and people don't have trouble pronouncing them at all. They have much greater trouble distinguishing si and shi, and I'm partly convinced that katakana has something to do with this (because there's no スィ in general use). For native words, you can basically argue that they're not phonemic, but it doesn't work for the modern language with all its English loanwords.

More accurately, you can argue that there's a neutralization or something between [tj] and [tɕ], because I'm pretty sure you can find somewhere where [tɕ] clearly is derived synchronically from [tj].

As for /ts/, yeah they have a few loanwords now like pizza as ピッツァ (instead of ピザ), but I think I've heard [pitswa] for this. And with f, again they have a way of writing it in katakana, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will then be able to distinguish it from [h] or [hw] or something.