Non-obvious placename pronunciations

[Travis B.]

From seeing the example of Ahuntsic in another thread, I thought of making a thread for examples of non-obvious placename pronunciations (especially since there are plenty in English).

[Travis B.]

Some examples I can think of from around here are:

Oconomowoc: /oˈkanəməˌwɒk/ > [oˈkʰãːnəːməːˌwɒʔk], /əˈkanəməˌwɒk/ > [ə̝ˈkʰãːnəːməːˌwɒʔk]
Waukesha: /ˈwɒkəˌʃɒ/ > [ˈwɒkɨˌʃɒ(ː)] (this may differ between specific dialects)
Chicago: /ʃəˈkɒɡo/ > [ʃɨˈkʰɒːɡo(ː)] (well known, though, and yes, I know other dialects pronounce this differently)

[linguoboy]

Cairo in far southern Illinois is one of the examples that gets trotted out frequently, but it seems to me that the common guides to its pronunciation are wrong. Wikipedia gives "/ˈkeɪroʊ/ KAY-roh". But one of my coworkers is from there, goes back regularly to see her family there, and she says "/ˈker.oʊ/ KARE-oh"--exactly like I pronounce the brand name "Karo [syrup]"

[linguoboy]

Waukesha: /ˈwɒkəˌʃɒ/ > [ˈwɒkɨˌʃɒ(ː)]

This is quite reminiscent of the pronunciation of Ouachita, a range of mountains in central Arkansas. I used to give this penultimate stress, but I learned recently from a native of the area that it's initial, i.e. /ˈwɒʃɨtɒ/.

[Travis B.]

Another one I just thought of is:

Okauchee Lake: /oˈkatʃiˌlek/ > [oˈkʰatʃiˌʟ̞eʔk]

[Viktor77]

Well, it took me a while to rid my English of [o`.rI.gan]. Now I have [o`.rI.gIn], the proper form, so that one not's obvious.

Saginaw is certainly not obvious. It's [sei.gI.naU] or [sei.g@.nau].

I had to unlearn Spokane, since it seems obvious to say [spoU.kein], although it is truly [spoU.ke@n].

My mother's maiden name was Reimers [ri:.m@`z]. But this one was changed by my great grandmother for no one knows why. We still say [rai.m@`z] if we have to say it to anyone who has to spell it.

I learned today that apparently the Michigan city Tecumseh is [tI.k@m.si]. I was saying [tI.k@m.s@].

[linguoboy]

What's with the lack of stress marks, Viktor?

Devon Avenue in Chicago (home to Little India/Little Karachi) is a shibboleth for out-of-towners. Stress is on the final syllable, i.e. /dəˈvɒn/. It's a much more important thoroughfare than Goethe, which is the example people usually bring up when they want to mock local pronunciations of Chicago street names.

One I used to get consistently wrong is Paulina. To me, the stressed i really wants to be /iː/, not /ai/.

[Travis B.]

Speaking of streets, here in Milwaukee there is Becher Street, pronounced:

Becher: /ˈbitʃər/ > [ˈb̥itʃʁ̩ˤ(ː)]

It being on the South Side of town, and myself not being all that familiar with the South Side originally, for a long time I wanted to pronounce it with /ɜ/ instead of /i/.

For another example of /a/ for au, there is Ozaukee County, pronounced:

Ozaukee: /oˈzaki/ > [oːˈzaki(ː)]

[Drydic]

I had to unlearn Spokane, since it seems obvious to say [spoU.kein], although it is truly [spoU.ke@n].

It's actually [spoUk."æn].

[Gulliver]

I grew up in Lewes, which I've heard pronounced /ljuːz/ but it actually pronounced /ˈluːɨs/.

There's an area of Brighton called the Steine /stiːn/.

There are two Gillingham like /ˈɡɪlɪŋəm/ and one Gillingham like /ˈdʒɪlɪŋəm/ in England.

[Travis B.]

I had to unlearn Spokane, since it seems obvious to say [spoU.kein], although it is truly [spoU.ke@n].

It's actually [spoUk."æn].

I think Viktor knows that; that [eə] is just Viktor's NCVS being applied to just about everything.

[Travis B.]

Another from here is:

New Berlin: /ˌnuˈbərlən/ > [ˌnʉ̯uˈbʁ̩ˤːɯ̞̯ɨ̃(ː)(n)]

Note the stress placement.

[Drydic]

I had to unlearn Spokane, since it seems obvious to say [spoU.kein], although it is truly [spoU.ke@n].

It's actually [spoUk."æn].

I think Viktor knows that; that [eə] is just Viktor's NCVS being applied to just about everything.

Uhhh, is that [eə] or [ɛə] then?

[Travis B.]

I had to unlearn Spokane, since it seems obvious to say [spoU.kein], although it is truly [spoU.ke@n].

It's actually [spoUk."æn].

I think Viktor knows that; that [eə] is just Viktor's NCVS being applied to just about everything.

Uhhh, is that [eə] or [ɛə] then?

I am pretty sure Viktor meant [eə], for historical /æ/. What I do not know is whether that is [eə̯] (falling) or [e̯ə] (rising).

[Jipí]

Round where I grew up, there's a whole bunch of villages that end in -hausen. The word's main emphasis is regularly on the first syllable: Méngeringhausen, Mássenhausen, Schmíllinghausen etc. Non-locals often seem to default to stressing the -hausen part, though.

(Counterexamples would be the cities of Mühlhausen and Oberhausen, which are not in the former duchy of Waldeck, but in the Ruhr area and which are commonly known – at least I believe so – to be stressed on the first syllable.)

[Astraios]

There's a Cholmondely /'tSVmli:/ and a Wymondham /'wInd@m/ somewhere.

[Salmoneus]

My word, you people get off lightly with your 'non-obvious' placenames.

At school I knew some people from an area that included such towns as Meopham (mEp@m), Wrotham (rut@m), Ryarsh (pretty obvious, really, just raIarS, but it looks odd) and of course the daddy of all tourist-confusing towns, Trottiscliffe (trQzli). Just to make the area a little more confusing there's East and West Malling (I'm assuming they're meant to have /{/, but I've heard a lot of /a/ from non-locals), and Vigo (two options, but I don't know which is right. It's named after the place in Spain, but via a pub) (looking at it, vigo also contains a 'Waterlow Road', which I wouldn't trust the pronunciation of...).

London, of course, is even worse. I once worked in Marylebone, which famously there ISN'T a correct pronunciation of. Instead, people embarrassedly settle into one of m{r@l@b@n, "m{ril@boUn, or (my own version) "mal@b@n, and react with appropriate snobbery and/or embarrassment when confronted with alternative pronunciations, depending on the perceived superior or inferior class or localness of the interlocutor. I mean it's only been there a few hundred years in the middle of what was at the time the biggest city on earth, no reason why we should actually have agreed what to call the place we live, is there? Holborn, Hainault, Theydon Boyce, Ruislip, Isleworth, Plaistow, Penge, etc.

When I was in Oxford there was Magdalen Street (and College), and the Cherwell river.

Elsewhere around the country there are such places as Alnwick, Hawick, Mousehole, Keighley, Torpenhow Hill, Kirkcaldbright, Colmondeley, Woolfardisworthy, Costessey, Rough Tor, and of course the truly incredible Gatwick and Cirencester.

Etc etc...

[Salmoneus]

I grew up in Lewes, which I've heard pronounced /ljuːz/ but it actually pronounced /ˈluːɨs/.

There's an area of Brighton called the Steine /stiːn/.

There are two Gillingham like /ˈɡɪlɪŋəm/ and one Gillingham like /ˈdʒɪlɪŋəm/ in England.

Since Gulliver reminds me of our home country, I'll add that Steyning is /stEnIN/, and that Uckfield and Cuckfield do not rhyme...

[Travis B.]

I was just waiting for someone to bring out the placenames in the UK which, yes, make the non-obvious pronunciations over here seem like just minor pronunciation variations vis-a-vis how they are spelled.

[Drydic]

London, of course, is even worse. I once worked in Marylebone, which famously there ISN'T a correct pronunciation of. Instead, people embarrassedly settle into one of m{r@l@b@n, "m{ril@boUn, or (my own version) "mal@b@n, and react with appropriate snobbery and/or embarrassment when confronted with alternative pronunciations, depending on the perceived superior or inferior class or localness of the interlocutor. I mean it's only been there a few hundred years in the middle of what was at the time the biggest city on earth, no reason why we should actually have agreed what to call the place we live, is there?

I'm changing my mind on replying to you apparently

If I'm ever there I'm just going to call it [mE5br\=n]

[clawgrip]

There are a many place names in Japan that are difficult or impossible to read if you don't know the pronunciation already. Here are just a few near me:

立川 is pronounced both Tachikawa and Tatekawa, depending on which place you are referring to.
酒々井 looks like it should be Shushusei, Shushui, Sakezakei, or something weird like that, but it is actually Shisui.
三ヶ月 looks like Sankagetsu but is actually Migose.
不忍 looks like it should be Funin but it is Shinobazu.
東雲 looks like it should be Tō'un, Higashigumo or Azumagumo, but it is actually Shinonome.
神戸 is the city of Kōbe, which is famous enough that no one mispronounces it, but it looks like it should be pronounced Jinko or Kamito. 神戸 also appears in one or two other place names as Kanbe.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

The OP's example Ahuntsic (/OntsIk/) is pretty much the only example in Québec.

The other ones are Granby and Salaberry, which are pronounced /gRambe/ and /salabEre/. That is, final English Ys are pronounced as /e/ not as /i/. But they actually end up to be a regular rule of Quebec French, where final English y in fully integrated name are pronounced as /e/. (e.g. ferry /fEre/)

Other placenames are pretty straightforward.

There are a many place names in Japan that are difficult or impossible to read if you don't know the pronunciation already.

I could list as much simply for my damn town. They're hell.

[clawgrip]

The OP's example Ahuntsic (/OntsIk/) is pretty much the only example in Québec.

The other ones are Granby and Salaberry, which are pronounced /gRambe/ and /salabEre/. That is, final English Ys are pronounced as /e/ not as /i/. But they actually end up to be a regular rule of Quebec French, where final English y in fully integrated name are pronounced as /e/. (e.g. ferry /fEre/)

Other placenames are pretty straightforward.

There are a many place names in Japan that are difficult or impossible to read if you don't know the pronunciation already.

I could list as much simply for my damn town. They're hell.

Sometimes they are so well known that you don't even realize they are unintuitive (like 我孫子 Abiko, which I see basically every day, so I forget it doesn't make any sense). Or ones with rare characters like 垳 Gake.

[Viktor77]

I am pretty sure Viktor meant [eə], for historical /æ/. What I do not know is whether that is [eə̯] (falling) or [e̯ə] (rising).

I have no idea. I'd love to have an exact vowel inventory done of my vowels but I haven't the slightest clue who does such things. If anyone here can do it, I'd give a good tip.

[Ser]

Viktor77: add stress marks to your previous post thx.

Ryarsh (pretty obvious, really, just raIarS, but it looks odd)

Is it Rýarsh or Ryársh?