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zompist bboard • View topic - Are there any languages that have both /ts/ & /tɕ/ phonemes?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:45 pm 
Sanci
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As the title says, are there any languages that have both /ts/ and /tɕ/ as distinct phonemes (or anything similar to this)? I'm thinking because both are not phonetically very different most of these would tend to merge relatively quickly. I know Japanese and Korean has both [ts] and [tɕ] but they are allophones which is not what I'm looking for.

Also if you know of any such languages, I would like to know what was the historical phonology behind the development of both phonemes.
Thanks in advance!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Mandarin Chinese has a three way distinction between /ts tʂ tɕ/ so yes, it distinguishes them at least.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Mandarin actually has a three-way distinction: [ts] [tʃ] [tɕ/tʲ] (not sure which one it's parsed as) and [dz] [dʒ] [dʑ/dʲ], indicated in pinyin as c, ch, q and z, zh, j, respectively. So, yeah, not necessarily.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:07 pm 
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*looks at Wikipedia*

Oh. Aspiration, not voicing, and those are retroflex. xP Well, in my defence the difference is hard to hear when you're not conscious of it.

Anyway, what I meant is "no, these phonemes are not necessarily candidates for quick mutual absorption".


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Polish contrasts /ts tɕ tʂ/. Serbo-Croatian /ts tɕ tʃ/. Russian just /ts tɕ/.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:48 pm 
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Last edited by clawgrip on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:48 pm 
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And I didn't even bother to check this thread apparently.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Three of the NW Caucasian languages (Ubykh, Abkhaz and Abaza) contrast them, unsurprisingly.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Tibetan has them.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:54 pm 
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You can add to the list.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Yes.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:14 am 
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well shit.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:37 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Most Samic languages have /ts/ as well as a postalveolar affricate, usually broadly transcribed as /tʃ/ in IPA but in UPA analyses I've frequently seen č́ (c with caron and acute) which would equal [tɕ]. (There might be variation in the realization across the different Samic languages.) Both inherited from Proto-Samic, with /ts/ coming from Proto-Uralic *č [tʃ ~ tʂ]? and /tɕ/ from PU *ś [sʲ ~ ɕ]? and *ć [tsʲ ~ tɕ ~ c]?

Tundra Nenets, some dialects of it anyway, also has /ts/ versus /tɕ ~ tsʲ/, resulting from the fortition of /s/ and /ɕ ~ sʲ/ after voiceless consonants and, IIRC, nasals. (In most other Northern Samoyedic languages including Forest Nenets, the only affricate is [tɕ], found as a realization of /tʲ/.)

Standard (Khalkha) Mongolian according to some accounts also contrasts /ts/ and /tɕ/ though I've again more commonly seen this analyzed as /ts/ vs. /tsʲ/ or even /ts/ vs. /tʃ/.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Polish: /t͡s/ is (1) from the Slavic second regressive palatalization and (2) from the progressive palatalization (of *k in both instances), (3) also from Common Slavic *tj (an instance of iotation), /t͡ɕ/ is (4) from *t before a Common Slavic front vowel, /t͡s̠/ is (5) from the first regressive palatalization of *k, also from (6) *stj ( → ʃt͡ʃ → s̠t͡s̠).

Russian: /t͡s/ -(1), (2), /t͡ɕ/ (3), (5). As illustrated, the similar phonemes in individual Slavic langs don't always map each other etymologically.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:43 pm 
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What's the difference between tɕ and tʃ?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Last edited by clawgrip on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:15 am 
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