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zompist bboard • View topic - Gabor's Reconstruction of PIE

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:06 am 
Avisaru
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(Note: Your profile says that you haven't logged in since January, but I suspect that you still lurk without logging in.)

source: http://www.tundria.com/Linguistics/pie-phonology.shtml

A couple questions:
1) You don't reconstruct a palatal series of stops. (You don't even mention a palatal series at all!) I assume that you thinki that it's something that satem languages innovated? In what environments did the palatal series appear?
2) Your reconstruct the laryngeals h_1, h_2, and h_3 as /h/, /x/, and /G/. Okay, but you also give two more, /x^w/ and /G^w/, to mirror the series of labiovelar stops. They appear in words that are traditionally reconstructed with /h_2w/ and /h_3w/. This confuses me; Are you saying that there was no distinction between a velar + /w/ and a labiovelar of the same voicing?

Note: Leiden reconstructs the PIE word for horse as *h_1ek^j-w-, which gave the Early Latin paradigm nom-sing *ecos, acc-sing *ecom, gen-sing *equí. The stem equ- was later generalized to the other cases. They never explain where this stem came from though. Did Italic/Latin merge velar + /w/ and the appropriate labiovelar? The satem languages show reflexes that this was clearly a palatal though, so it could not have been in PIE.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:47 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:21 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:40 pm 
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Hello, everyone.

Oh, I haven't been lurking (much) - if I visit, I usually say something. I am not known for my reticence. :) It's just that life in retirement, in beautiful (if somewhat rainy) Vancouver BC, has turned out to be busier in some ways than work in Geneva. I do many things, and visiting the Board has been relegated to the background. Also, I have just come back from a 3.5 week tour of Europe, visiting 6 countries, and I had little time for online activities during that time. (It would have been 7 countries, but Hungarian Railways advised me not to take the train through Prague, because the Prague-Berlin line was flooded out. So I flew EasyJet instead, Budapest-Berlin. I had to drop a visit to Prague once before - it seems God does not want me to visit the Czech Republic).

But now I have a question on Indo-European, I can't resist answering. In fact, I have a long-term plan to revise and greatly expand my pages on PIE. Hopefully I can do this before I die (just kidding).

On the issues at hand, my views have not changed much since the time I put them up on my pages in the first place:

1. On the velar vs. palatal series: I think that there is just one series, originally velar. This goes along with my belief that PIE, as far back as we can go, had a phoneme *a, separate from ablauting *e/*o/zero, and independent of *H2e > Ha. Original velars would have developed into palatals in many, but not all, environments in the dialects that later developed into the satem languages. One environment where velars were retained was before *a.

This is not the place to analyze all the data, but let me just give a quick overview of the situation of *k before (original) *a. On a quick count in Pokorny, there are 50 PIE etyma beginning with *ka- and 11 beginning with *k'a (palatal). Only 5 of these 11 have no alternate explanations: *k'ad- 'to fall', *k'ad- 'to shine', *k'a(n)k- 'to hang', *k'as- 'gray' and *k'at- 'to fight'. Maybe I can come up with a reasonable explanation of these forms, given my theory, maybe not. But I note that there are exceptions to palatalization rules affecting velars in Old English, for example (look up the history of "back" - why is it not **batch?). Dialect mixture? Analogy? Who knows - wait for my presentation when it appears.

2. On the question of labiovelar laryngeals, what surprises me is that no-one seems to have suggested this before me (if someone has, please let me know). If you look at Hittite glossaries, initial ku+vowel parallels initial hu+ vowel, both occurring with similar frequency. We know that Hittite ku+vowel corresponds to PIE *k^w, it is an obvious parallel to make a similar correspondence between Hittite hu+vowel and PIE *x^w (or *H2^w, if you prefer).

Here is a list of PIE words with *x^w, from my work in progress: *dl.x^wghós ‘long’, *g^wíx^wos ‘life’, *g^wix^wós ‘alive’, *x^wḗntos ‘wind’, *x^wés- ‘to dwell, to stay’,*néx^ws ‘boat’, *póx^wṛ ‘fire’, *sóx^wēl ‘sun’, *x^wl.'xnex ‘wool’.

And yes, indeed there is at least one case of *xw, distinct from *x^w : *píxwōn ‘fat’ [cf Gk pîar ‘fatty substance’] (I forget my reasoning, bear with me).

There is less evidence for the corresponding voiced labiovelar laryngeal, because internal H3 was lost even in Anatolian. But it is reasonable to reconstruct it at least for *g^woG^ws 'cow, cattle'.

I am firmly opposed to the phonetic identification of *H3 as *H^w. This is often done to explain the o-colouring of an adjacent *e. In my view this is contradicted by the fact that labiovelars are widely retained in Anatolian, Italic, Germanic and Greek, at the very least. Why would these branches have the uniform change *H^we > *Ho, when *k^we is retained in the same branches (with Grimm's law *k^we > *x^we in Germanic)?

I hope this gives a quick resumé of my ideas on the subject.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:07 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:49 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:07 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:36 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:02 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:58 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:09 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:36 am 
Smeric
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Also, what about the stress patterns?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:05 pm 
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I was wondering about those anomalous *o-s just now. They seem to be a lot more common after labials/labiovelars.


I'm not convinced by your argument against H3 being rounded, though. If we assume it was a fricative or approximant, it wouldn't be unusual at all to lose distinctions still retained in the stops, particularly if it's a sound a long way back in the mouth to begin with. And after all all the languages dropped it entirely soon after - that is, they failed to distinguish it from its absence, and from the presence/absence of the other laryngeals - it doesn't seem farfetched to imagine that they may have failed to distinguish some details of its realisation before they came to fail to distinguish it at all.

[Good to see you back, by the way. I'm glad retirement is suiting you!]

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Welcome back, Gabor!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:06 pm 
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:26 pm 
Lebom
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Thank you guys. It's always nice to feel welcome.

I may not have made it to Prague, but I did manage to spend 5 days in London. Among the treasures I found in its bookshops (ex-Dillons, Foyles and that of the London Transport Museum) were the 2nd ed. of Beekes's Comparative IE grammar, the Little Prince in Cornish (!): An Pennsevik Byhan, and histories of the tram networks in Cardiff and Dublin. I also had my usual tram ride from Greenwich to Croydon - I think by now I know this route better than most Londoners.

One day I and my wife went to the Science Museum, which still has (in my view) the best overall presentation on the scientific revolution that made the world what it is today (for better or worse). And most of it took place in the UK.

And since it was a beautiful day, unlike most during my stay there, we walked all the way from the museum, through Hyde Park and in front of Buckingham Palace, through Piccadilly and theatreland, to our hotel, just across from ex-Dillons on Gower Street.

We also had a nice Rodizio (Brazilian barbecue) dinner on Shaftesbury Avenue, in what must be a fairly new restaurant. This in honour of my continuous fascination with everything Brazilian - and Brazil is my next planned destination, assuming its ex-Trotskiite President can dissuade her fellow citizens from continuous demonstrations.

Talking of London restaurants, we walked by the Gay Hussar, London's only remaining Hungarian restaurant, and it decidedly looked shut down, although its web page is up even now. Sal, can you find out if it's still functioning?

Gabor


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:07 pm 
Avisaru
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(I forget how many times, and in how many places on the net, I've already written what I'm going to write, so nothing new will happen if you ignore this.)

(Also, "you" is used below to refer to any potential reader of this message, not any participant in the previous discussion in particular.)

So....

All the statements about plain velars being rare are based on counting the occurrences in (root-)initial position. If you look at the consonants occurring in root-final position or in suffixes, you'll see that the series in question is not rare at all. Surprise.

Also, the claims about restrictions on environments where plain velars occur, too, work for the (root-)initial position only.

Also, stop quoting the Lithuanian forms without satemization. Whatever it is, it's an internal Baltic problem.

Also, before adducing a Baltic or Slavic word without expected satemization effects, do check if it can be a Germanic loan. All those 'gardens' and 'geese' quoted without a question mark just look like cheating.

Also, if you call "PIE" what I call Indo-Hittite, then you don't have a "PIE reconstruction". Nothing to discuss.

Also, if you call "PIE" what I call "Narrow PIE", stop speaking of "pre-ablaut stage" (&like) as something immediately preceding what you call "PIE".

Also, stop marking the stress in PIE forms, no matter what you call PIE; you don't know what suprasegmentals PIE had. Nobody does.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:33 pm 
Smeric
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The mad is strong with this bro.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:01 am 
Lebom
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According to wikipedia the plain velars were never in any suffixes

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:10 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:04 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:43 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Basically yes, though saying 'zero-grade vowel' is (as I'm fairly sure you understand) not accurate, since it is the absence of any other vowel.

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