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zompist bboard • View topic - PIE and PU heteroclitics

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 Post subject: PIE and PU heteroclitics
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:05 pm 
Lebom
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Has it occured to anyone that IE heteroclitics -r/-n on the one side and U heteroclitics -s/-nen on the other might be cognates? On the IE side, there could have been rhotacisation s > r, while on the U side, there could easily have been expansion of the ending n > nen. Has this resemblance been dealt with anywhere? How plausible it is? And what is the supposed origin of heteroclitics in both families?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:44 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:07 pm 
Sanci
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It seems very plausible.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:34 pm 
Avisaru
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For PIE, the sugeestion I've seen is that the ending was originally /n/, and final /n/ became /r/ but /n/ + suffix remained /n/. I've also seen the same phonetic process suggested for the 3pl ending in /r/ in the past tense of some verbs.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:44 pm 
Sanno
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Some thing there are l/n heteroclitics in PIE, though. On the other hand, those could be by analogy, especially since l-stem roots in general don't seem to have survived well as a class.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:57 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:04 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:08 am 
Sanno
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Hittite is full of r/n roots. In fact, there's two different classes of them - both static and proterodynamic. And apparently there's one possible hysterodynamic as well.
Since the r/n words are usually proterodynamic elsewhere, I'd suspect that the static ones (like me:hur) may be later forms by analogy - although they may instead by simplifications where the accent change has made the alternation too opaque?
Hittite also includes a general abstract suffix -a:ta:r/-a:nn, believed to be from -ótr/-ótn.

Others include pattar/pattan, 'basket', harshar/harshn- (head), lammar/lamn- (moment), mukar/mukn-, 'rattle', and so on.

Apparently sanskrit shíras/shi:rshnás (forgive spelling) is from k'er2sr/k'r2snos.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:57 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:02 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:35 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:06 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:13 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:31 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:53 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:07 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:12 pm 
Smeric
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This pretty much settles the issue.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:19 pm 
Avisaru
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Also the only PU roots that seem likely to be related to corresponding PIE heteroclitics are *wetə "water" and *päjə "sun" (~ "fire"? reflected in Komi as /bi/ "fire"), which behave as perfectly ordinary CVCV roots.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:33 pm 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:38 am 
Lebom
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And what is the origin of PIE heteroclitics then?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:05 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:28 am 
Sanno
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To clarify: although a bunch of other l/n words have been suggested, none are actually agreed on by the consensus, so far as I know, other than the word for 'sun'. It's more "it looks like there was at least one l/n word, so there were probably others... hey, this could be an l/n word!".

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:55 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:50 am 
Avisaru
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Redundant post deleted - I took too long looking for a good /n/ > /r/ and Tropylium beat me to the reply.


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