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zompist bboard • View topic - Cases/Adpositions

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 Post subject: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:57 pm 
Avisaru
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Given the following sentences:
1) I struck the man.
2) I yelled "Watch out!" to the man.

Is there any language where "the man" takes the same case/adposition in both sentences?

Also, given the following sentences:
3) I named the dog "Spot".
4) I told the man "No thank you.".
5) I called the man a wanker.

How would you gloss these sentences? How are these sentences usually/traditionally parsed into parts-of-speech? I want to call the first object after the verb the indirect object, but none of them can be extracted into a prep phrase, which is somewhat strange.


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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:17 pm 
Avisaru
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Well, definitely to the former - there are plenty of languages with identical case marking for direct and indirect objects. It would surprise me if there wasn't a language where 'yell' took two objects. The semantically similar 'tell' works like this in English.

As for the second set - I think the normal interpretation would be, for 3 and 5, verbs with an object and a complement (the quality the verb ascribes to its DO). 4 is slightly different - I'd say "I told you so" is just a substantivesque second direct object.

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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:27 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:50 pm 
Boardlord
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To borrow some examples I used in another thread... Latin treats some of these as double accusatives-- mē augurem nōmināvērunt "they named me augur", elementa eōs docēbat "he taught them the basics". This of course in a language that has a healthy dative case.


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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:01 pm 
Lebom
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I told the man to watch out.
I gave the man a warning.

Dialectically I have
I gave him a no-thank-you.


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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:55 pm 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:23 am 
Avisaru
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Terra,
go read on "dechticaetiativity"

As for 3) and 5), the standard analysis used in grammar in high school for me would have those consist of a direct object and an object complement ('objektpredikatsfyllnad/objektspredikativ' in Swedish).

That is, the role of 'John' in "we call him John" is similar to "red" in 'the house is red', but it pertains to the object instead of to the subject. (I hope you already know why 'red' is not an object in 'the house is red', or at least a very unusual object if it is one.)

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Last edited by Miekko on Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:00 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:45 am 
Smeric
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That's because linguists realized it was a dumbfuck term to use and started calling it secundative.

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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:14 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:33 pm 
Smeric
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I'm pretty sure there's tons of verbs like those in English and Spanish...

Aliméntalo con comida especial.
/aliˈment-a=lo kon koˈmida espeˈθjal/
to.fill-2S.IMP=it with food[F].SG special.SG
Feed it special food.

Llénenlo de pintura roja.
/ˈʎen-en=lo de pinˈtuɾa ˈrox-a/
to.fill-2P.IMP=it of paint[F].SG red-F.SG
Fill it with red paint.

Cúbralo de pintura roja.
/ˈkubɾ-a=lo de pinˈtuɾa ˈrox-a/
to.cover-2S.IMP=it of paint[F].SG red-F.SG
Cover it with red paint.

It's probably quite questionable whether the thing to be covered in red paint in the last two examples is really a recipient, but I think "to fill" and "to cover" have enough "motion towards sth" for that?

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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:01 pm 
Boardlord
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 Post subject: Re: Cases/Adpositions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:12 am 
Avisaru
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