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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:23 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:29 pm 
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I'll admit that *h₂ʷ lacks any real corroboration, but it's also not an integral part of my theory. It was more just a "huh, there's a hole here, what if *h₂w were originally *h₂ʷ to fill it" (full disclosure, I first saw this idea elsewhere, though I don't recall off the top of my head who it was - perhaps ?). EDIT: , in fact.

On *o, I've conceded that it certainly could have been rounded by late PIE, since not all of the branches I thought supported an unrounded *o are quite as clear as I thought - I really need to get around to studying the evidence again. On the other hand, that doesn't prove roundedness for early PIE, since spontaneous rounding in low back vowels is well-attested. So at this point my argument is largely implicational - there's clear evidence that *h₃ wasn't rounded, so it follows that *o wasn't rounded either, at least at the time of laryngeal colouring (which as we all know was early PIE or earlier). Supporting this line of reasoning is that the apophonic vowels *e : *o come from *a : *ā (via *æ : *ɒː), which independently requires a spontaneous rounding in the history of *o.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Fine. I have no problem with an earlier stage of PIE possessing an unrounded antecedent of PIE3 *o. In fact, the rounding of PIE *o may have been a post-Anatolian matter, perhaps connected with the emergence of vowel colouring by laryngeals. Which brings us back to the qualities of the laryngeals. I still maintain the opinion (an opinion, nevertheless!) that the difference between *h2 and *h3 was that the latter was rounded. This makes it tempting to identify *h3 with the fricative member of the labiovelar series.

But then, *h1 and *h2 can't simply be the front and back velar fricatives, because the frequencies are wrong (one would expect *h1 to be the most common, and *h2 the least common, a bit rarer than *h3, but it is actually *h2 which is the most common), and this difference wouldn't explain why *h1 is lost in Hittite and the others usually not (the instances of lost *h2 and *h3 in Hittite aren't plentiful, and may be due to internal developments of the Anatolian branch). So perhaps the front and back velar fricatives merged in *h2, and *h1 was something unconnected to the three velar series, probably simply *h. This merger may have happened when the velar fricatives became pharyngeal approximants in PIE3 (such a POA shift would probably have clobbered the not-so-great POA difference between them, but left the labialization of the labiovelar fricative intact), and independently in Hittite in the course of its kentum development.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:39 pm 
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But isn't the only "evidence" for a rounded *h₃ the roundedness of *o? If you accept that *o need not even have been rounded at the time of laryngeal colouring, continuing to insist on a rounded *h₃ is nonsensical without new evidence, which I note you haven't offered.

I agree about *h₁ (though IMO your argument is slightly flawed - you can simply swap round *h₁ and *h₂, matching the common *h₂ to the common *Ḱ series, and the less common *h₁ to the less common *K series. Why people always insist on aligning the arbitrary numbering of the laryngeals to the front-back dimension of PoA is utterly beyond me. But still we'd expect *h₁ to be a lot less common than it really is, so the argument is flawed anyway), as do many scholars, in assigning it to a glottal fricative (though there are reasons to suppose that *h₁ might have been a glottal stop - or perhaps there were originally two *h₁'s?)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:16 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:10 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:37 am 
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Some laynrgs are attested as /x/ in Hittite so can't be too far off from that originally. That and that they are in most reconstructions allowed to appear between other consonants.
What did you mean by coincidence >borrowing>luck? I don't understand, was that a mistake? What is luck in this context?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:39 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:43 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:31 pm 
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English 'laryngeal vocalization' can be explained as vowel epenthesis, so there's that. Are there any schwas at any point in PIE that could've merged with *e early on in pre-Greek?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:13 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:37 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:42 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:52 am 
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Re the laryngeals once being stops in Anatolian - I knew I had read of an Anatolian languages where they were stops, so I looked it up in Fortson, and voilà (p. 194): in Lycian, *h2 is reflected by a stop, "variously spelled k, q, and χ" (these are the conventional transcription symbols for the Lycian letters). This is not proof of the developments I conjectured yesterday, though, but perhaps we have a snapshot of the "stop stage" here.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:24 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:38 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:26 am 
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As you certainly know, I consider the three non-high PIE3 vowels to have emerged from a single PIE1 vowel, *a (which is of course unrounded), and it may well be that the antecedent of PIE3 *o was not yet rounded in PIE2, though I expect rounding to have happened already by that time. IMHO, in PIE2 *o probably was something like [ɒ] (and *e was [æ]). If PIE2 *o was unrounded, then the difference between *h2 and *h3 at that time would have been something else than labialization, but that begs the question why *h3 labiovelarizes an adjacent [ə] to /o/ in Proto-Greek if it doesn't have the feature [+labial]. One would have to suppose parallel rounding changes in both *o and *h3, which is not very parsimonious. The most parsimonious solution would IMHO be that *o was already rounded (and be it as [ɒ]) in PIE2.

But alas, we are probably not knowledgeable to find out when PIE *o acquired its rounding. Each of us has his/her own opinion about the time of *o-rounding, and we can leave it at that.

The Lycian fortition of laryngeals, I agree with you, is a development internal to Lycian. As I said earlier, there is no evidence for hardened laryngeals in Luwian, which was to be expected if the Lycian stop reflexes of the laryngeals were old.

Also, regarding the frequencies of the laryngeals in PIE, it may be that *h1 is heavily under-reconstructed (and the other two perhaps over-reconstructed). There are AFAIK quite a few words where a *h2 or a *h3 is reconstructed based on vowel colours alone without Hittite cognates actually showing the laryngeal in question, and in such situations, *h1, which doesn't colour vowels, would be irreconstructible. Also, there are the many laryngeals of unknown quality. How many of them were which one?

I do not seriously expect to manage to crack this riddle!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:18 pm 
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It may well be parsimonious, but imo parsimony isn't a good enough reason to reject other scenarios, especially when there's other evidence to consider, such as the (imo conclusive) argument that *h₃ cannot have been rounded.

Yes, the laryngeals are absolutely misreconstructed in many cases. For example, Kloekhorst insists on *h₃ in the "sheep" word because of frequent o-vowels, despite the clear a-vowel in Tocharian which points to *h₂. Similarly, the LIV insists on *h₂ when Indo-Iranian shows an aspirate but the others a plain stop (voiceless or voiced), even though *h₁ seems to also have aspirated (and logically, *h₃ might have as well).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:59 pm 
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It just occurred to me that it's relevant that there is another language with a "triple-reflex"... Latin. Specifically, in the environment *HN̥C- > *e/a/oNC- (cf. endo, indo "in, on, to" < *h₁n̥do, ambi "around" < *h₂n̥tbʰi, unguis "finger-nail, claw" < *h₃n̥gʰu-). Except this sound change happened within Italic itself, and all other vocalisations involving laryngeals yield only *a, like other non-laryngeal epenthetic vowels (cf. in particular arbor "tree" < *h₃r̥dʰōs, arduus < *h₃r̥dʰwos). So either we insist that all three laryngeals were still distinguished down into the pre-history of Italic, as well as Greek, or there's some other explanation for both of these.

Doing a little more digging, de Vaan derives amō from *h₃m̥h₃- (with the laryngeals based on Greek), which leaves me wondering why the first vowel is a. Surely it'd be o, or even e, depending on the timing of certain changes?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:47 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:25 am 
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A interesting idea, Tropylium, and IIRC also proposed by Kortlandt.

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