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zompist bboard • View topic - The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:08 am 
Smeric
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Taking the laryngeals as former uvular stops, while ingenious, only works in a two-tectal model, which at present I don't accept. The so-called evidence against a series of plain velars is IMO unconvincing, as AFAICT it amounts to "well the other two series neutralise to plain velars in a few places, so all plain velars must be the result of neutralisation" and that just doesn't follow.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:46 pm 
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It works if one assumes that uvulars and front vowels never occurred next to each other in PIE0 (the pre-GVC stage) - not a particularly unusual constraint as uvulars tend to back vowels. Perhaps the front vowels preceding or following uvulars were backed, explaining why there was no "front uvular" in the later stages, also explaining why *h was the most common laryngeal - wherever a front vowel was next to PIE0 *q, it became a back unrounded vowel.

So things may have gone like this: in PIE0 there would have been a velar stop series *k *k' *g and a single uvular stop *q. At that point, there were no velar or uvular fricatives; the only fricatives in the language were the alveolar sibilant *s and glottal *h. The velars could occur next to all vowels, but *q only next to back vowels because it backed adjacent front vowels. This constraint meant that when the GVC hit home, the velar series split into three as we know them from later stages of PIE, but *q split only into two - labialized *q next to a rounded vowel and unlabialized *q everywhere else. These uvular stops became fricatives by the time of PIE2, namely *χ = *h and *χ = *h. *h is the glottal fricative *h. The rest goes as in the handbooks.

Alternatively, one could assume that there was a "front uvular", but merged with the voiceless front velar stop (PIE3 *ḱ). But I think the version I laid out above is more plausible, and does a better job of explaining the high frequency of *h.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:42 pm 
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I meant that more as in since the "plain velars" would have to have been further back than velar, there's no room for the "pre-laryngeal" uvular stops as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:30 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:38 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:46 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:04 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:37 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:57 pm 
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Regarding rounding of *o, I've often wondered about the nom. o-stem ending in Sanskrit. Utterance-finally, it is -aḥ, but before a voiced sound it has the allophone -o (< earlier /aw/). I have imagined a development from rounding assimilation: -os > -osʷ > -asʷ > -ahʷ > -ah but, when voiced, -oz > -ozʷ > -azʷ > -aɦʷ > -aw, with the decisive split resulting from different simplifications of hʷ vs. ɦʷ. I don't recall hearing anther explanation of the -o allomorph.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:29 am 
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deals with the reflexes of PIIr. *az (and *až), and explicitly denies mediation through a diphthong, since we never find e.g. ai < *āz, but rather ā with simple loss of the fricative, which indicates compensatory lengthening as the source of the long vowels instead. While the paper is agnostic on why *az > o in external sandhi, against the internal development to e, we can definitely rule out your hypothetical scenario.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:44 am 
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:38 am 
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I'm not sure I understand. The whole point is that ablaut only acted on the original low vowels. In principle, every instance of /aː/ is susceptible to being shortened to /a/ because ablaut was just that widespread.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:25 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:12 am 
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:27 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Ah, I see. In my framework, those schwas are from the original underlying vowels, so *CawC > *CəwC > *CuːC > *CuC


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:39 pm 
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So...wait, zero-grades derive from e-grades? (Or are they 'a-grades'?)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:15 pm 
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More or less, yes, though I thought this was generally understood, since verbs preserve the distribution between accented e-grade and unaccented zero-grade particularly well, e.g. *h₁ésti < *h₁ásti vs. *h₁sénti < *h₁asánti


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:09 am 
Smeric
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Alwin Kloekhorst seems to think that *h and *h were uvular stops in PIE; his web site teases us of a manuscript in which he says that there is evidence of this in Anatolian; alas, the manuscript is not available, so nobody knows what his argumentation is.

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