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zompist bboard • View topic - The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:12 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:21 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:34 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:58 am 
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Are you sure the Greek examples aren't just loans with b,d respelled?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:36 am 
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I don't know any Greek so I'm not sure. There are obvious loans such as μπύρα [ˈbira] “beer”, there are some shortenings such as Ντίνα [ˈdina] (a shortened form of Κωνσταντίνα “Constantina”, but there are probably native Greek words which begin with any of /mp/, /nt/ or /nk/.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:46 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:47 am 
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Why do you think it probable?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:54 am 
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Yes, although they are rather rare. One example is ντύνω, which derives from classical ἐνδύω.

NE: although this comes with the caveat that this etymology is not exactly widely reported and to my knowledge initial vowel loss is not usually a thing in Greek, so this is either one of a few isolated cases or actually a loan with uncertain provenance. In any case, the wide majority of Greek words with initial voiced stops are loans.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:01 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:08 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Grrr. Armenian. Seems to be no damn relation between starting phonemes and where they end up...

Of course, with Armenian, everything's additionally screwed up by the large number of loanwords in various eras from various Iranian languages.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:26 pm 
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If the loans are recognizable, it's better than Albanian...

gaudium → gas
medicus → mjek
padule → pyll
bubulcus → bujk
accipiter → qift
ecclesia → kishë
monacus → murg
imperator → mbret
vicinus → fqinj

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Anybody have anything on the Germanic substrate?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:39 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:44 pm 
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I'm just gonna drop this here:

So apparently it's possible to crank a PhD out of proposing a preposterious reinterpretation of a reasonably well-constructed proto-language, if it's done in sufficient detail? The guy is proposing that there was only one laryngeal, no laryngeal coloring, the stop system comprised only *p *t *k, etc.

I went to see his defense even. His opponent was Lyle Campbell, who in summary described the work as "provocatory". I'm assuming this is a polite way of saying basically "out of touch with modern research?"

There are some ideas I find reasonable, e.g. that plastering *h₁ before all traditional vowel-initial reconstructions is unwarranted, but you'd have to dig deep to find these.

This is going to end up either as a forgotten footnote or as a huge argument in the field, depending on how good he is at being provocatory…

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Last edited by Tropylium on Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:13 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:50 am 
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Incidentally, has anybody managed to read the paper in which Colarusso argues that IE and NWC languages are descended from a ? Given the Urheimat of PIE and assuming that the Caucasus had similar antics back then as it does now I have always kind of thought that the idea of a Caucasian (Early) PIE, as it were, makes a lot of sense -- such a proposal would include some variant of the glottalic theory as well as the PIE ablaut originally being between /a ə/ rather than /e o/; with much of the strange features it acquired later explicable by the migration of speakers into different linguistic areas.

That said, as far as my limited knowledge goes, there is no good reason to suppose this would entail phylogenetic rather than areal factors and I am quite convinced Colarusso is a crackpot (especially given the difficulty of reconstructing proto-NWC) but I would be very interested in the arguments he gives for it.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:08 am 
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