The phrase "at random" is pretty much a single unit for me, but this author reanalysed it as any other preposition + noun combination and inserted adverbs and adjectives accordingly. It sounds horrible to my ears, but I can't find anything grammatically wrong with it. Am I crazy?...with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete random.
Is This Grammatical To You?
- Hydroeccentricity
- Avisaru
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:01 pm
Is This Grammatical To You?
"I'm sorry, when you have all As in every class in every semester, it's not easy to treat the idea that your views are fundamentally incoherent as a serious proposition."
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
I think "random" is rarely if ever used as a noun outside of the phrase "at random". When you see "random" without "at" you probably expect it to be an adjective, so you probably can't help interpreting "complete random" as an adjective modifying another adjective. However, "completely random" also sounds wrong here because then there is no noun for the preposition "at" to be modifying.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
I'd generally agree with clawgrip in that I wouldn't expect "random" to appear as a noun except when, say, referring to random people, e.g. "those randoms over there". I'd say the following would make more sense:
1) ...with cracks splitting open at seemingly completeIy random times/places (although "places" would probably suit "in" rather than "at")
2) ...with cracks splitting open, seemingly, completely at random (I might be wrong on the commas there)
3) ...with cracks splitting open, seemingly, completely randomly (a bit clunky but still grammatical for me)
1) ...with cracks splitting open at seemingly completeIy random times/places (although "places" would probably suit "in" rather than "at")
2) ...with cracks splitting open, seemingly, completely at random (I might be wrong on the commas there)
3) ...with cracks splitting open, seemingly, completely randomly (a bit clunky but still grammatical for me)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
- KathTheDragon
- Smeric
- Posts: 2139
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
- Location: Brittania
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
No comma between 'seemingly' and 'completely' in 2 and 3.
- Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
No, this is an abomination upon our language and must be purged with cleansing flame.Hydroeccentricity wrote:The phrase "at random" is pretty much a single unit for me, but this author reanalysed it as any other preposition + noun combination and inserted adverbs and adjectives accordingly. It sounds horrible to my ears, but I can't find anything grammatically wrong with it. Am I crazy?...with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete random.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
Would probably have placed "seemingly" in a position between "cracks splitting". However, I'm an l2 so my opinion might not count.
If I stop posting out of the blue it probably is because my computer and the board won't cooperate and let me log in.!
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
This is the only one that really sounds natural to me, though it's still a bit of a modifier overload. "Completely" could probably be dropped without any ill effect on meaning and would sound a lot smoother.sangi39 wrote:2) ...with cracks splitting open, seemingly completely at random (I might be wrong on the commas there)
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
It almost sounds like someone was going to say "at random" and then decided to put the qualifiers in at the last second. "...at—seemingly, just... complete random" or something like that. So, I'd say it's grammatical but I'd only expect it to crop up in unrehearsed conversation. In writing I'd revise it to something like "splitting open, seemingly in completely random ways." "Ways" could be replaced with lots of more specific nouns depending on context: places, patterns, times, etc.
Exits, pursued by a bear.
- ObsequiousNewt
- Avisaru
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
- Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
퇎
Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.
Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.
- Salmoneus
- Sanno
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
Yes. Except I might even write it.Jess wrote:It almost sounds like someone was going to say "at random" and then decided to put the qualifiers in at the last second. "...at—seemingly, just... complete random" or something like that. So, I'd say it's grammatical but I'd only expect it to crop up in unrehearsed conversation. In writing I'd revise it to something like "splitting open, seemingly in completely random ways." "Ways" could be replaced with lots of more specific nouns depending on context: places, patterns, times, etc.
At first, reading it straight, it seemed ungrammatical. But if I imagine brackets, commas or dashes around 'seemingly complete', it becomes fine.
"with cracks splitting open at (seemingly complete) random!"
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
- Radius Solis
- Smeric
- Posts: 1248
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
- Location: Si'ahl
- Contact:
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
Yeah. This is a matter of it being unidiomatic, not ungrammatical. The phrasing is well-formed but awful.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
How about this: Can you tell me what’s the difference between…and…?
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
Totally grammatical for me, though I probably wouldn't write it; I didn't even blink.Hydroeccentricity wrote:The phrase "at random" is pretty much a single unit for me, but this author reanalysed it as any other preposition + noun combination and inserted adverbs and adjectives accordingly. It sounds horrible to my ears, but I can't find anything grammatically wrong with it. Am I crazy?...with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete random.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
That's so natural to me it took ages to figure out how there could possibly be anything wrong with it.linguoboy wrote:How about this: Can you tell me what’s the difference between…and…?
- 2+3 clusivity
- Avisaru
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:34 pm
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
As the posters above noted, this is probably highly variable in acceptability. These work for me:
1. ?"with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete random."
2. *"with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete randomly."
3. ?"with cracks splitting open at seemingly completely random."
4. *"with cracks splitting open at seemingly completely randomly."
5. "with cracks splitting open seemingly at complete random."
6. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly at complete randomly."
7. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly at completely random."
8. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly at completely randomly."
9. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete at random."
10. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete at randomly."
11. "with cracks splitting open seemingly completely at random."
12. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly completely at randomly."
13. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete random."
14. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete randomly."
15. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly completely random."
16. "with cracks splitting open seemingly completely randomly."
1. ?"with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete random."
2. *"with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete randomly."
3. ?"with cracks splitting open at seemingly completely random."
4. *"with cracks splitting open at seemingly completely randomly."
5. "with cracks splitting open seemingly at complete random."
6. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly at complete randomly."
7. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly at completely random."
8. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly at completely randomly."
9. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete at random."
10. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete at randomly."
11. "with cracks splitting open seemingly completely at random."
12. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly completely at randomly."
13. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete random."
14. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly complete randomly."
15. *"with cracks splitting open seemingly completely random."
16. "with cracks splitting open seemingly completely randomly."
Last edited by 2+3 clusivity on Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
linguoboy wrote:So that's what it looks like when the master satirist is moistened by his own moutarde.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
Same here. Rereading a couple times it might be a bit unidiomatic. May have something to do with the brain auto-adjusting things, I think the first time I auto-adjusted it to "seemingly at complete random" without realizing something was off, so if I heard it spoken instead of read I may have more strongly felt it was poorly worded.Neon Fox wrote:Totally grammatical for me, though I probably wouldn't write it; I didn't even blink.Hydroeccentricity wrote:The phrase "at random" is pretty much a single unit for me, but this author reanalysed it as any other preposition + noun combination and inserted adverbs and adjectives accordingly. It sounds horrible to my ears, but I can't find anything grammatically wrong with it. Am I crazy?...with cracks splitting open at seemingly complete random.
Yea. Didn't click until a couple minutes of staring and rewording.Astraios wrote:That's so natural to me it took ages to figure out how there could possibly be anything wrong with it.linguoboy wrote:How about this: Can you tell me what’s the difference between…and…?
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
I saw that one right away. Written it's just wrong, but spoken, depending on the intonation and pauses, it could be no problem at all.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
I('ve) been having to do lots of different things for my job.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
That was my reaction, too. Yet another native speaker told me it looked completely wrong to them.Astraios wrote:That's so natural to me it took ages to figure out how there could possibly be anything wrong with it.linguoboy wrote:How about this: Can you tell me what’s the difference between…and…?
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
I think this is fine? The only thing I can see as being a problem is the stylistic double-have that might be a little awkward, like saying "that [conjunction] that [demonstrative]".Theta wrote:I('ve) been having to do lots of different things for my job.
FWIW, I find action nominals (especially of the type "my building [of] the treehouse is exhausting me", "the scientists' discovering [of] the Higgs boson was a major endeavor", etc) to be far less idiomatic than any of the example sentences people have given so far, despite being also grammatically correct.
- Salmoneus
- Sanno
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
To me, what's wrong with it is that the verb should come after 'difference', not after 'what', or else there should be a colon after 'me'. But since it's hard to judge the placing of colons in fluent speech...linguoboy wrote:That was my reaction, too. Yet another native speaker told me it looked completely wrong to them.Astraios wrote:That's so natural to me it took ages to figure out how there could possibly be anything wrong with it.linguoboy wrote:How about this: Can you tell me what’s the difference between…and…?
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
-
- Lebom
- Posts: 204
- Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:26 pm
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
I'm with Sal in that it works if there is a larger than usual clausal break between me and what's in the prosody, but otherwise I'd put the copula after difference.Salmoneus wrote:To me, what's wrong with it is that the verb should come after 'difference', not after 'what', or else there should be a colon after 'me'. But since it's hard to judge the placing of colons in fluent speech...linguoboy wrote:How about this: Can you tell me what’s the difference between…and…?
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
It's kinda funny that linguoboy's example sounds perfectly okay to me (it's super common in spoken language), but other question words used as conjunctions don't really allow the same order at all:CaesarVincens wrote:I'm with Sal in that it works if there is a larger than usual clausal break between me and what's in the prosody, but otherwise I'd put the copula after difference.Salmoneus wrote:To me, what's wrong with it is that the verb should come after 'difference', not after 'what', or else there should be a colon after 'me'. But since it's hard to judge the placing of colons in fluent speech...linguoboy wrote:How about this: Can you tell me what’s the difference between…and…?
* I don't know how has he done that.
* Can you tell me how far is the train station from here?
* Do you know where's he gone?
* I don't know who's that guy.
* I just can't understand why's he done that!
Even the same sentence in the past tense sounds weird:
? Did he tell you what was the difference between A and B?
— o noth sidiritt Tormiott
-
- Avisaru
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
- Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
In written language I as a non-native would find linguoboy's sentence wrong from a prescriptivist kind of view (it's wrong even though it sounds okay, that kind of thing), but right intuitively. In spoken language it's completely fine.
I agree with din's conclusions regarding similar sentences which all are wrong to me, and i think this would be a very interesting topic to dive into syntactically.
I agree with din's conclusions regarding similar sentences which all are wrong to me, and i think this would be a very interesting topic to dive into syntactically.
Re: Is This Grammatical To You?
No, I broadly agree, although I would sometimes say the ones that I think are not exactly right. Now what I think is happening is that the contracted form "what's" can't be split up like the others, and I also think there's precedent for this in English with certain syntactic constructions – although I can't remember them offhand. I think it's that there are certain cases where adverbs or something come between auxiliary verbs and "not" but they obviously can't split up the contracted form because it's become a single word.