English /tr dr/ affrication

[dhok]

Are there any dialects of English which do not affricate /t d/ to [tʃ dʒ] before /r/?

[Drydic]

Judging by my tree and drool, I don't consistently affricate them, if I ever do at all.

[Terra]

I assume that you're aware and not interested in cases where a dialect does affricate /tr/ and /dr/, but not when it follows /s/, like in <string> == /strIN/ == [StrIN].

[vec]

Well, I'd say it was more a case of r turning into a (non-sibilant) fricative and thus forming a cluster with the stop, not really an affricate necessarily.

[Nortaneous]

I affricate /tr/ much more than /dr/, if /dr/ is even affricated at all, which I'm not sure of.

[Salmoneus]

Err.... sorry, I edited his post rather than quoting. Here's what I said:

Depends what you mean, I guess.

From a physical point of view, [t] is a stop (full contact), and [r] (English [r]) is an approximant (no contact). Moving from one to another, you must pass through a fricative (partial contact) stage - that's just physics.

However, how much time the tongue spends in the fricative stage may vary, as does whether the total motion closely resembles the motion you'd get from saying /tS/ followed by /r/.

Personally, the fricative is very, very brief and I wouldn't notice it if I didn't know it had to be there. And, besides, even if I extend the fricative, it's still nothing like my /tSr/ (apical-alveolar followed by retroflex approximant, vs labialised laminal postalveolar followed by (/coarticulated with) labiodental approximant with tongue tensing and possible dorsal-of-some-kind involvement (I assume pharyngeal because that's what everyone says is common, but I really couldn't tell myself)).

[Particles the Greek]

Mine... very slight affrication if any.

[ol bofosh]

Whilst I have affrication coming out my ears!... so to speak.
To even attempt a none affricated /tr/ or /dr/ just feels weird to me.

It comes out as [t͡ʃʰʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ] and [d͡ʒʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ]. After /s/ the aspiration disappears.

My girlfriend (L1 French, fluent Spanish) also affricates before her /r/ (I think it's [ɽ]), but I'm not sure if she did that before or after meeting me.

[Radius Solis]

I think I generally lack it. I had thought that I completely lacked it, but then one time a few months back I noticed I had just said I was going to get something to jrink. On the other hand, the fact I noticed, and sometimes notice it when people from Forn Parts are talking, suggests it really isn't a normal pronunciation for me; meanwhile, my /r/ has no articulatory reason to cause affrication as it has no coronal component.

edit: I hesitate to make a broad declaration about my "dialect", but I am in the same basic dialect region as Nessari.

[Kereb]

I don't have a lot to contribue except to third what Nessari and Radius said, from another insider. I'm from the same general area as Radius, although on the other side of the duty-free shops, and I've also noticed* that this feature is one that we go light on in this neck of the woods.


*in the speech of others, cuz overanalysis of your own speech leads to observation artifacts and snowflakism -- it's better to think of it like this: you don't have a "dialect", but everyone who talks like you talk does.

[ObsequiousNewt]

Whilst I have affrication coming out my ears!... so to speak.
To even attempt a none affricated /tr/ or /dr/ just feels weird to me.

It comes out as [t͡ʃʰʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ] and [d͡ʒʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ]. After /s/ the aspiration disappears.

My girlfriend (L1 French, fluent Spanish) also affricates before her /r/ (I think it's [ɽ]), but I'm not sure if she did that before or after meeting me.

How do you do that?!

[Kereb]

I'LL CHOP YA UP PUT YA INSIDE THE MATTRESS LIKE JRUG MONEY

[Rhetorica]

I would want to say it's a stereotype of at least some prestigious Scottish and English accents to retain proper /tr/. I've started doing it habitually, much in the same way a neurotic who discovers a cockroach starts obsessively bleaching her entire apartment.

[ol bofosh]

Whilst I have affrication coming out my ears!... so to speak.
To even attempt a none affricated /tr/ or /dr/ just feels weird to me.

It comes out as [t͡ʃʰʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ] and [d͡ʒʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ]. After /s/ the aspiration disappears.

My girlfriend (L1 French, fluent Spanish) also affricates before her /r/ (I think it's [ɽ]), but I'm not sure if she did that before or after meeting me.

How do you do that?!

Affrication coming out the ears? Or the weird labialised, pharyngealised post-alveolar+labiodental approximant? Dunno, good breedin'.

[zompist]

I'm curious about Americans, like Radius, who say they don't do this. I find it really hard to avoid the affrication. Could someone post a recording?

For comparison, here's myself saying "A dragon with stripes lives in the tree."

http://www.zompist.com/dragon-tree.wav

So far as I can judge, I have the affrication even after s. I can only get rid of it by replacing my retroflex r with something else (a flap or a trill).

[KathTheDragon]

Zompist, your voice is beautiful!

I find that (having the affrication everywhere) non-affricated /tr dr/ sound very Welsh or Irish to me.

[Radius Solis]

I'm curious about Americans, like Radius, who say they don't do this. I find it really hard to avoid the affrication. Could someone post a recording?

For comparison, here's myself saying "A dragon with stripes lives in the tree."

http://www.zompist.com/dragon-tree.wav

So far as I can judge, I have the affrication even after s. I can only get rid of it by replacing my retroflex r with something else (a flap or a trill).

If only I had a microphone.

On the other hand... well, stop release intrinsically passes through a brief fricative stage, and the only phonetic utility of the term "affrication" is to point out when that stage is long enough to be audible... and given that, I am not certain you have anything really worth calling affrication. It's nothing on the affrication I have heard in the speech of some other people.

What is clearly audible to me is a postalveolar POA on the stops. Is it possible you could be letting that POA affect your perception of their MOA, via their co-occurrence in the phonemes /tS dZ/?

I'd really like if someone who knows how could analyze your recording in Praat. I pulled it up in Praat myself, but it's kinda pointless because I can't really read spectrograms well. The only voiceless-fricative-like spots I can identify are the [T] in "with" and the aspiration in "tree". I'd be happy to post a screenshot if it would help someone give us a better analysis.

[Bristel]

I think I do it with tree and dream, but I'm out in public, so I'll try to talk aloud at home later.

I'm from the land of Si'alh as Radius is. I think my sister and brothers have/had a heavier affrication of tr/dr than I do. (but then again, we grew up as CODAs and they used to pronounce ice like [hais] with heavy frication too.)

[ObsequiousNewt]

Whilst I have affrication coming out my ears!... so to speak.
To even attempt a none affricated /tr/ or /dr/ just feels weird to me.

It comes out as [t͡ʃʰʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ] and [d͡ʒʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ]. After /s/ the aspiration disappears.

My girlfriend (L1 French, fluent Spanish) also affricates before her /r/ (I think it's [ɽ]), but I'm not sure if she did that before or after meeting me.

How do you do that?!

Affrication coming out the ears? Or the weird labialised, pharyngealised post-alveolar+labiodental approximant? Dunno, good breedin'.

No, I mean being able to transcribe yourself so precisely.

Zompist, your voice is beautiful!

Agreed. Zompist, you should voice an audiobook for the LCK.

[Bristel]

Gives me an idea for a future English conlang… but something triggers it, initial mutation style a la Gaelic, or something else… Not sure if that's likely or not.

[Rhetorica]

Gives me an idea for a future English conlang… but something triggers it, initial mutation style a la Gaelic, or something else… Not sure if that's likely or not.

Alternate history where tax havens control the world economy, causing prestige languages aplenty. Done!

[ol bofosh]

No, I mean being able to transcribe yourself so precisely.

A long process of trial and error. Partly discoveries and also looking on the Internet at related resources (Cockney resources have been useful). And I still might be wrong, but for the moment it's the one that fits.

My history of transcribing it is as follows: ʋ* ɹ ɹʷ ɹʷˠ ɹʷˤ ʋɹʷˤ ʋ͡ɹ̠ʷˤ

*I never transcribed it like this, but I thought my rhotic was a "lip sound" for many years before I knew anything about linguistics.

[Buran]

Gives me an idea for a future English conlang… but something triggers it, initial mutation style a la Gaelic, or something else… Not sure if that's likely or not.

I've noticed initial mutations in my own speech, actually; I deaspirate consonants between words. For example, "Did you find the car?" becomes something like /dʒə fa:jn ðə ka:r?/, note no aspiration on /k/ and /ɑ/ fronting to [a].

While I'm at it, I might as well list a few other changes. /t/ and /d/ affricate before /r/, but also before /j/. /æ/ and /ɛ/ are merging, while /ɛ/ in some places (for example in "leg") is being fronted to [e] (or /ɪ/? Perhaps all three will merge to /e/).

Maybe you should make /dʒə/ an interrogative particle in your conlang.

[Zaarin]

I certainly don't have any sibilant affricates in my /tr dr/, but I think I may have an epenthetic vowel so that it is more [tʰəɻ]--though in normal speech the schwa is almost inaudible.

[PVER•PVERVM•AMAT]

I can choosee not to affricate them; my /r/ is postalveolar rather than retroflex, but I don't.