zompist bboard

Something I noticed recently is that I think I have a phonemic diphthong /əɪ/. It seems like this phonemic distinction occurs not just in places where the /t d/ contrast is neutralized, but also in the environment of a syllabic r (I believe mine is bunched, not retroflex), e.g.:

higher /haɪɹ̩/ vs. hire /həɪɹ̩/
tier (one who ties s.th., probably as the second part of a compound) /taɪɹ̩/ vs. tire /təɪɹ̩/
-fier (suffix) /-faɪɹ̩/ vs. fire /fəɪɹ̩/ (though "humidifier" seems like it might have the "-fier" part in free variation for me for some reason)

Anybody else got this/heard of this?

I have this in some of those words, as well as hide (animal skin) vs. hide (and seek). I've heard of it in liar/lyre, but don't naturally pronounce it there unless I concentrate.

gmalivuk wrote:I have this in some of those words, as well as hide (animal skin) vs. hide (and seek).

Hmm. I have /haɪd/ for both of those.

I've heard of it in liar/lyre, but don't naturally pronounce it there unless I concentrate.

Ah, that's another good one. I do pronounce those differently (/laɪɹ̩/ vs. /ləɪɹ̩/).

Pogostick Man wrote:Anybody else got this/heard of this?

Yup. Whether this is phonemic or not depends on how you treat morpheme boundaries. If you use a boundary phoneme in your analysis, the distinction remains allophonic.

What do you have in spider?

Something I noticed recently is that I think I have a phonemic diphthong /əɪ/. It seems like this phonemic distinction occurs not just in places where the /t d/ contrast is neutralized, but also in the environment of a syllabic r (I believe mine is bunched, not retroflex), e.g.:

higher /haɪɹ̩/ vs. hire /həɪɹ̩/
tier (one who ties s.th., probably as the second part of a compound) /taɪɹ̩/ vs. tire /təɪɹ̩/
-fier (suffix) /-faɪɹ̩/ vs. fire /fəɪɹ̩/ (though "humidifier" seems like it might have the "-fier" part in free variation for me for some reason)

Anybody else got this/heard of this?

Yes, I have this. I wouldn't call it morphemic though. All the first examples in each pair have something in common: They're each "word+er" (where "er" is the agentive or comparative suffix).

(though "humidifier" seems like it might have the "-fier" part in free variation for me for some reason)

Lexicalization.

What do you have in spider?

And "tiger". (Why these two words specifically often "misbehave", I'm not entirely sure. "spider" could be analyzed as having sporadically changed /d/ to /t/. (Intervocalic /t/ is [d], but preserves the vowel before it as [@I] and not [aI].) As for "tiger", I can't even think of another word that has [@Ig] or [aIg] to compare it to. /g/ affects other front vowels (it raises /{, E, e, I/, by my count), so maybe it affects /aI/ somehow too?)

Edit 2: How about "Geiger (counter)". I can't tell whether it has [@I] or [aI] though.

I'd be inclined to hypothesize that this is a phenomenon affecting morpheme boundaries. If I heard a hypothetical word like [klaɪɹ̩], I'd be inclined to analyze it as the dimorphemic /klai+ɹ̩/, but if I heard a word [kləɪɹ̩], I'd probably assume it was some monomorphemic word /klair/.

(I'll also note that at least IMD, the roses/Rosa's distinction also involves the higher vowel occurring intramorphemically or morpheme-initially whereas the lower occurs morpheme-finally): /roz-əz/ > [ro:zɨz], but /rozə-z/ > [rozəz])

Terra: 'bygone' and 'Saigon'. [Also 'liger' and 'tigon', but those aren't really independent evidence...]

I have this distinction too, although of course not with the same realisation exactly. But 'liar' (etc) is a triphthong (or low monophthong, since I have the beginnings of triphthong monophthongisation), whereas I think 'lyre' (etc) is probably a diphthong.

Terra wrote:Edit 2: How about "Geiger (counter)". I can't tell whether it has [@I] or [aI] though.

I have [aɪ̯] in Geiger vs [ɐɪ̯] in tiger, but there could be some interference from German going on there.

The examples before /r/ are inconclusive for me because I have diphthong smoothing in that position to varying degrees. I really can't tell how I would distinguish liar and lyre in natural speech, if at all. (It doesn't help, of course, that lyre is hardly a word I'm likely to utter in the course of conversation.)

Also, the old thread.

(Perhaps, should be bumped?)

I have [əi] for monomorphemic -der (spider, cider), but never for -ber or -ger. 'Tiger' has [ai].

Pretty relatedly to this, how do people pronounce 'louse' versus 'Laos'?

[læʊs] vs [læ.oʊs]

Louse
Standard phonemes: /ˈlaʊ̯s/
Dialectal phonemes: /ˈlɑɔ̯s/
Phones: [ˈʟ̞ɑ̝̆ŏ̯s]

Laos
Standard phonemes: /ˈlaʊ̯z/
Dialectal phonemes: /ˈlɑɔ̯z/
Phones: [ˈʟ̞ɑɔ̯s]

I'd probably pronounce them the same, but I have æ in Pakistan and don't care so don't listen to me.