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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:00 am 
Lebom
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Re. *seks* would /ks/ be a valid cluster, or would it have developed something like /kt, pt/ as happened in Celtic?
Also from Celtic, I haven't time to dig into this now, but your forms of 'four' with and without a /w/ remind me of the Welsh (and Cornish and Breton) m. and f. versions of this numeral, _pedwar_ (m), _pedair_ (f).
Love the idea of a recon p-Italic btw. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:31 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:31 pm 
Avisaru
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Whoops, double post...

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Last edited by kanejam on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:30 am 
Avisaru
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I haven't been working too hard on this recently, sorry to whoever was following this. But I promise this is still on my mind and I'll get back to it soon. But as a bonus I just discovered wiktionary's reconstruction of the Proto-Italic noun system, and while it's incomplete and I don't agree with everything they've written it has given me an idea. I will have a quick go at the 4th declension, but not just what they would look like if they descended straight from Pr-It but what they are more likely to be given the scant forms we have and the blurring from the i-stems that is suggested.

4th Declension

SG
Nom ... -s ... mans ... -s ... *-us
Voc ... -s ... mans ... -s ... *-us
Gen ... -úvs ... manúvs ... -ūs ... *-ous
Dat ... -veí ... manveí ... -uī ... *-owei
Acc ... -im (-um) ... manim ... -um ... *-um
Abl ... -id (-ud) ... manid ... -ū ... *-ūd
Loc ... -ou ... manúv ... -ū ... *-ou
PL
Nom/Voc ... -s ... mans ... -ūs ... *-?
Gen ... -um ... manum ... -ūm ... *-wom
Dat/Abl ... -uss ... manuss ... -ibus ... *-ufos
Acc ... -uss ... manuss .. -ūs ... *-uns

The dative singular might drop that -v- with the pressure from the i-stems and the plural oblique forms might well be -íss rather than -uss. The ablative singular would probably end up as -eí after the i-stems as well. If all of the above happens, and the assumption of the nominative plural is correct, we end up with basically an i-stems which has an irregular genitive singular.

I'm still going to ignore the 5th declension, and assume if I have to that they too will have merged with the i-stems.

Edit: Unfortunately wiktionary has no info on verbal declensions and de Vaans' etymologies don't worry too much about inflection either. Hopefully sometime I'll finally get round to having a look through the comparative grammar of Greek and Latin.

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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:58 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:02 pm 
Avisaru
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It's been a while since I've done any work on this and I'm pretty busy at the moment so a decent reply won't be forthcoming any time soon.

I can confirm the changes 3.1, 3.4, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 (and I think 4.4 as well), 5.1 and 8.1. I know that gʷ -> b as part of the large labiovelar shift (and I'm pretty sure χʷ -> f as well). I'm unsure about the others, but it certainly seems that they share plenty of changes.

About 4.3: I've been entertaining the notion that the aspiratae actually became voiced fricatives that devoiced initially, rather than voiceless fricatives that voiced intervocalically.

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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:36 am 
Avisaru
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Last edited by Sumelic on Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:55 am 
Avisaru
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I thought of a sort-of exception to what I said above: there are a fair number of languages I can think of with voicing contrast in labial plosives, no native /f/, but that have something like /v~ʋ~w/. I don't think any of them count as a clear-cut /p b v/ though; the general pattern is that/v/ is derived from and still patterns to some extent as a semivowel, and /f/ is well-established from loanwords or other sources. Certainly none of them have a four-way contrast between /p b v w/ without /f/, which would be necessary to get the four distinct Classical Latin reflexes /p b f w/.

: has /p pʰ b bʱ ʋ/, and also /f/, but /f/ only occurs in borrowed words, where it has historically sometimes been realized as /pʰ/ (Wikipedia suggests that most modern speakers are capable of articulating [f] though).

Many have /p b v f/ but with /f/ only being found in loanwords (although these words are usually numerous and well-established). The phoneme /v/ usually derives from earlier [w] and may still be realized this way in some contexts in some languages (such as ).

has /p b f v/ but /f/ in native words doesn't contrast with /p/ at the start or end of a word. However, there are loanwords with word-initial /f/ or word-final /p/, and intervocalically the two are contrastive in inherited words due to the loss of consonant length.

So actually, all of these languages still have /f/ in some way. Also, none of them resolved the instability of /p b v/ by devoicing word-initial /v/.

The only example of word-initial devoicing of fricatives I can think of is in German (for /z/) and Dutch (for /z/ and /v/), where it appears to be a reversal of earlier general voicing of word-initial fricatives /s/ and /f/. I'm not even sure if this is a true devoicing shift, or if it's a case of the relevant dialects never applying the voicing shift and just retaining original [s] and [f].


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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:25 am 
Sumerul
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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:16 pm 
Avisaru
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I don't have any great big reason to think this. My thinking is mostly in two parts: firstly the question of how the voiceless fricatives get there in the first place. AFAIK all theories of the phonology of PIE place the aspiratae as voiced stops, so a simple lenition to voiced fricatives seems more likely. Secondly, I think the idea of voiceless fricatives is a carry over from the days when Greek and Latin were thought to be closely related and the fricatives were thought to have come from voiceless aspirates, but now there is no reason to posit voiceless aspirates at an intermediate stage, especially if you don't think the aspiratae were breathy voiced (which I don't - at least not until Greco-Armeno-Aryan).

You're right to point out that the resultant series /p b v w/ is really unlikely, and that intervocalic voicing is already attested by intervocalic /s/ -> [z] (which happened already in Proto-Italic). My thinking is that the initial fricatives devoiced straight away due to the unstable nature of the series, and that afterwards the fricative series was phonemically voiceless (or at least unmarked for voicing) without ever having been realised as such intervocalically. It's not a particularly convincing argument I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:31 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:22 pm 
Avisaru
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I think there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of the development of the 'voiced aspirates' in Chapter 5 of Jane Stuart-Smith's . She starts from the shockingly conservative hypothesis that the phonations were as in Hindi, i.e. *t = [t], *d = [d] and *dʰ = [d̤], and looks at what happens to these sounds in Indic languages. She ends up with d̤ > tʰ initially (as in Romany - bhrātā > English _pal_ is the mnemonic example); also generally reconstructed for Thai and Lao and their minor neighbours and I think actually visible in the ensemble of Khmu dialects) and d̤ > ð between vowels. I don't remember her analysis of intervocalic clusters - their development across Italic is not trivial. She also motivates the anomalous development of initial *gʰr > gr- in Latin.


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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:01 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:34 pm 
Avisaru
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Another devoicing of (initial) fricatives that probably doesn't help is the Tai abandonment of voicing contrasts, where we see a merger of the plausible (initial) voiced series /v z ɣ/ with /f s x/. (Preɡlottalised stops then generally simplified to voiced.)


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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:14 pm 
Lebom
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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:35 pm 
Avisaru
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For the supposed instability of /p b w v/, note that modern Polish has this system except for /f/ from loanwords.


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 Post subject: Re: Oscan Reconstruction
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:53 am 
Smeric
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