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What is this construct called?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:02 pm
by Particles the Greek
Where you have a conjunction followed by an infinitive, as in "how to do it" and "whom to castigate for not knowing the proper names of grammatical constructions". How is this realised in other languages, where it's done differently?
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:22 pm
by Salmoneus
Where's the conjunction?
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:25 pm
by Terra
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:00 pm
by CaesarVincens
I think what is occurring in those two examples is a fronting/raising of a wh- element around the infinitive that would be dependent on a main clause such as "I know" or "John told Sally"
If you replace the wh- word with say "thus" and "him" you will see that the infinitive doesn't depend on those words, but the reverse.
Or change the infinitive into "I should X"
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:39 pm
by roninbodhisattva
CaesarVincens is right, it's an embedded infinitival interrogative clause. These have been called "wh-interrogatives" as well. Compare
(1) I know [ what [ to buy __ ]
(2) I know [ what [ I should buy __ ]
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:47 pm
by finlay
araceli wrote:(1) "how to do it" and (2) "whom to castigate"
Japanese:
1)
やり方を知らない
yari-kata wo shiranai
do.NMN-way ACC know-NEG.NPAST
"I don't know the way of doing it."
2) 誰を殺して知らない
dare wo koroshite shiranai
who ACC kill-CNJ know-NEG
"I don't know who to kill."
ie the second one is done similar to English and the first has a separate construction. I have to check the second one though, as another possibility might be 〜殺すのを〜 instead of 〜殺して〜, or so.
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:03 am
by tezcatlip0ca
How about "too dim to see"? I know it's an unrelated type of construct, but I think this is the best place to ask.
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:58 am
by roninbodhisattva
tezcatlip0ca wrote:How about "too dim to see"? I know it's an unrelated type of construct, but I think this is the best place to ask.
That construction is part of a phenomenon known as tough movement. An embedded object undergoes movement to to the matrix subject position.
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:33 am
by clawgrip
finlay wrote:araceli wrote:(1) "how to do it" and (2) "whom to castigate"
Japanese:
1)
やり方を知らない
yari-kata wo shiranai
do.NMN-way ACC know-NEG.NPAST
"I don't know the way of doing it."
2)
誰を殺して知らない
dare wo koroshite shiranai
who ACC kill-CNJ know-NEG
"I don't know who to kill."
ie the second one is done similar to English and the first has a separate construction. I have to check the second one though, as another possibility might be 〜殺すのを〜 instead of 〜殺して〜, or so.
Actually you would say:
誰を殺すか分からない。
dare o korosu ka wakaranai.
This type of clause always takes the interrogative ka.
どこに行くか教えて
doko ni iku ka oshiete
where DAT go Q tell-CNJ
"Tell me where you are going."
いつ始まるかまだ決まっていない
itsu hajimaru ka mada kimatte inai
when begin Q still decide-CNJ be-NEG
"It hasn't been decided yet when it will start."
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:51 am
by finlay
damn. i've heard '~ka dou ka' before - didn't know if that would be right...
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:13 am
by Kereb
they like to translate ka dou ka as "whether or not"; it's just for yes-no situations
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:54 am
by Imralu
In German, there's no direct equivalent.
.
I don't know how to do that. (Literally: "I don't know how one does that.")
.
I don't know what to do. (Literally: "I don't know what I should do.")
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:12 pm
by Cedh
There's also this construction:
I don't know what should be done. (Literally: "I don't know what to do is.")
Still not a direct equivalent though, both syntactically (because of the additional copula) and semantically (because "was zu tun ist" requires an obligative reading).
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:38 pm
by gmalivuk
Is that not basically obligative in English as well?
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:34 pm
by Cedh
Yes, it can have an obligative reading in English. However, in English "I don't know what to do" can also be interpreted as "I don't know what I want to do", which is not possible with the German sentence "Ich weiß nicht, was zu tun ist".
This is even clearer if we use different verbs: In English you can say "I don't know where to go", which again may have both an obligative reading or a non-obligative one (with the latter as a fairly unmarked option, maybe even the default reading). In German, ?"Ich weiß nicht, wohin zu gehen ist" can only be interpreted as "I don't know where I must go", and it sounds awkward (it's grammatical, strictly speaking, but nobody would really say that). The English construction is basically a specialized use of the to-infinitive, and thus relatively neutral in tone, whereas the German zu+Infinitiv+ist construction is an explicit obligative construction, which contrasts with the bare zu+Infinitiv construction as in "Ich habe vor zu gehen" ("I'm planning to go").
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:16 pm
by Salmoneus
Prima facie, that looks like the English 'to be to be done' construction. [Which is a confusing name because you never see it in the infinitive in the wild]
That is, "I don't know what is to be done".
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:40 pm
by gmalivuk
Cedh wrote:Yes, it can have an obligative reading in English. However, in English "I don't know what to do" can also be interpreted as "I don't know what I want to do"
Ah, right. I hadn't thought of that before, but then my roommate came home and complained that she didn't know what to eat, which is of course exactly that "what I want to do" sense.
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:52 am
by hwhatting
Cedh wrote:There's also this construction:
I don't know what should be done. (Literally: "I don't know what to do is.")
Still not a direct equivalent though, both syntactically (because of the additional copula) and semantically (because "was zu tun ist" requires an obligative reading).
In some cases, when the verbs don't have any complements, the English construction can be rendered by interrogative + infinitive:
Was tun? "What to do?"
Wohin fliehen? "Where to flee to?"
Was heute anziehen? "What to wear today?"
But it doesn't really work with longer sentences, and it has the feel of an elliptical construction.
OTOH, in Russian the construction works exactly as in English:
Как бросить курить - "How to give up smoking"
Где искать любовь - "Where to look for love"
Кому задать вопросы о налогах - "Whom to ask questions about taxes"
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:38 am
by linguoboy
hwhatting wrote:OTOH, in Russian the construction works exactly as in English:
Как бросить курить - "How to give up smoking"
Где искать любовь - "Where to look for love"
Кому задать вопросы о налогах - "Whom to ask questions about taxes"
In contrast to English, can't these be used interrogatively as well? I'm helping a native Russian-speaker with his English, and he's always phrasing his questions in this manner, e.g. "How to use construction 'being + participle 2'?"
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
by Aili Meilani
linguoboy wrote:hwhatting wrote:OTOH, in Russian the construction works exactly as in English:
Как бросить курить - "How to give up smoking"
Где искать любовь - "Where to look for love"
Кому задать вопросы о налогах - "Whom to ask questions about taxes"
In contrast to English, can't these be used interrogatively as well?
Yes, they can. Same in Polish, and most other Slavic languages I presume.
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:47 pm
by Click
Works in Croatian the same way as in English, yep.
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:25 am
by hwhatting
linguoboy wrote:hwhatting wrote:OTOH, in Russian the construction works exactly as in English:
Как бросить курить - "How to give up smoking"
Где искать любовь - "Where to look for love"
Кому задать вопросы о налогах - "Whom to ask questions about taxes"
In contrast to English, can't these be used interrogatively as well? I'm helping a native Russian-speaker with his English, and he's always phrasing his questions in this manner, e.g. "How to use construction 'being + participle 2'?"
As Aino said, yes, they can, but now you surprised me - what, this construction can
not be used interrogatively in English? I think I've seen that being done, but as a lot of my interaction is with none - native speakers, that may be interference from their native languages, and I don't know whether I've heard it from native speakers or not..
And, to clarify this, the
Was tun construction in Germany is mostly interrogative.
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:52 am
by clawgrip
No, it's not a natural question form in English. I can't imagine a native speaker (from any region I'm familiar with) using it as a question. It's about as natural as making questions like "The way to give up smoking?" "A place to look for love?"
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:42 am
by CaesarVincens
Some such questions work for me, but are fairly idiomatic (and non-specific), such as "what to do" and "where to go".
Re: What is this construct called?
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:43 pm
by hwhatting
CaesarVincens wrote:Some such questions work for me, but are fairly idiomatic (and non-specific), such as "what to do" and "where to go".
OK, that's mostly what I have encountered.