/ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

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/ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Particles the Greek »

Are there any minimal pairs?
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Thry »

I'm sure there are, but I have to go and can't summon simple examples right now.

Thought, for instance:
paella "paella"
pa' Elia "for Elia"

I have /ʝ/ anyway... but they're clearly distinct.

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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by linguoboy »

What about liana vs llana?

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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Thry »

I've only ever heard [li."a.na], never ["lja.na]

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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by tezcatlip0ca »

Billar vs biliar?

Also, it's always [ljana] here in northern Mexico, never [li.ana]. Of course, we have no /ʎ/ phoneme.
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by zompist »

French magner / manier.

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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by vec »

tezcatlip0ca wrote:Of course, we have no /ʎ/ phoneme.
Who does, these days?
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Thry »

Billar vs biliar?
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Particles the Greek »

So, yes. Are there sufficiently few to make a merger likely?
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Dewrad »

vec wrote:
tezcatlip0ca wrote:Of course, we have no /ʎ/ phoneme.
Who does, these days?
Italian. Also contrastive with /lj/. olio /ˈoljo/ vs Oglio /ˈoʎo/ (phonemically, that is: phonetically internal /ʎ/ is pretty much always [ʎː]).
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Thry »

araceli wrote:So, yes. Are there sufficiently few to make a merger likely?
Not happening any time soon in my Spanish, if at all... but it could. Sometimes I misspronounce "antonio" as "antoño" but it's noticeable and people laugh when such a thing happens. Maybe in some dialects it's happening?

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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by vec »

I repeat my question from above (where I was not being facetious).

In every dialect of Spanish I have heard, historical /ʎ/ has become [j], [ʝ], [ʒ] or [ʃ] and I have never ever heard it pronounced [ʎ] except on this one audio course I tried from the seventies.
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by zompist »

The Universtity of Chicago dictionary has a nice map showing areas where /ʎ/ is preserved: the Peruvian Andes, plus Bolivia and Paraguay. Note that the first two areas are also where Quechua and Aymara are spoken, and both distinguish l and /ʎ/ as well.

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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Imralu »

A friend of mine from Barcelona pronounces it in both Spanish and Catalan, although I'm only hearing her conscious pronunciation when telling me individual words. I don't speak either language to hear whether she's pronouncing it in fluent speech.
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Re: /ɲ/ and /ʎ/ versus /nj/ and /lj/ in Romance

Post by Thry »

Some people in Spain do have /ʎ/, either as an idiosincrasy from interference cos they're bilingual or some dialect that keeps it (mostly northern ones).

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