Page 1 of 1
Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:02 am
by Αυτοβοτα
I was thinking about the concept of a musical rest and how musicians are encouraged to "play" it. I wondered whether that could be applied to language. Is there any precedent of a pause in a word with a similar beat to a long vowel? And I don't mean with gemination or glottal closure--simply just a lack of sound. You could compare it to a long voice-onset time (using zero as representative of the pause): /t0a/ (delayed VOT) vs. /ja0ta/ (post-vocalic pause). And if such a thing existed, post-vocalically, does or could it contrast with a long vowel, in which the entire length is taken up by voicing? E.g., /jata/ vs. /ja0ta/ vs. /ja:ta/.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:18 am
by Pabappa
I dont think that could happen in a human language. I dont really know *why*, but it just seems to me that it wouldnt survive. Im not sure that the /ta0na/ type would be distincguishable from a glottal stop anyway.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:43 am
by vokzhen
Αυτοβοτα wrote:You could compare it to a long voice-onset time (using zero as representative of the pause): /t0a/ (delayed VOT) vs. /ja0ta/ (post-vocalic pause).
How is this different than aspiration/preaspiration or /h/?
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:35 am
by ----
How do you tell what's a word and what's a group of words in this hypothetical language? If your answer is stress, is "the" a word in English?
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:53 am
by Valdeut
The original post is somewhat confusing in that it talks about voicing, but I'm going to assume that a pause here means not just lack of voicing but complete lack of airflow (required for "a lack of sound").
I'm by no means an expert but I think their may be a physiological barrier to using "true pauses" phonemically in that we don't have that precise control over the airflow from our lungs. It takes a while for all air in one breath to travel out of our mouth so it's a bit difficult to time the end of the airflow so that the pause occurs at the right point in a word. If you want to interrupt the airflow quickly, the way to do it is by closing the glottis, but that's specifically not what you're asking for.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:20 pm
by CaesarVincens
Αυτοβοτα wrote:I was thinking about the concept of a musical rest and how musicians are encouraged to "play" it. I wondered whether that could be applied to language. Is there any precedent of a pause in a word with a similar beat to a long vowel? And I don't mean with gemination or glottal closure--simply just a lack of sound. You could compare it to a long voice-onset time (using zero as representative of the pause): /t0a/ (delayed VOT) vs. /ja0ta/ (post-vocalic pause). And if such a thing existed, post-vocalically, does or could it contrast with a long vowel, in which the entire length is taken up by voicing? E.g., /jata/ vs. /ja0ta/ vs. /ja:ta/.
The closest thing I can think of is glottal stops and ejective stops. In some languages with ejective stops there is something of a noticible delay between release of the stop closure and release of the glottal closure.
So, for example the oft cited Cockney pronunciation of the word "bottle" /bɔʔl/ or common American pronunciation of "button" /bʌʔn̩/
I'm sure there is a language out there somewhere that has long vowels and post-vocalic or intervocalic glottal stops.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:27 pm
by Αυτοβοτα
So it's not feasible without some sort of glottal, whether a stop or (pre-)aspiration.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:13 pm
by CatDoom
Αυτοβοτα wrote:So it's not feasible without some sort of glottal, whether a stop or (pre-)aspiration.
It might be worth noting that [h] is not really a glottal sound; it isn't characterized by a constriction of the airway at any specific point of articulation, with the shape of the vocal tract being shaped entirely by surrounding sounds. Indeed, it can justifiably be said that the only salient feature of [h] is voicelessness.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:20 pm
by Nortaneous
No, the closest things to that are glottal stops, gemination, aspiration and preaspiration, and so on.
There's a language that shifted /k g/ to a fortis and lenis glottal stop.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:49 am
by Quantum
Nortaneous wrote:There's a language that shifted /k g/ to a fortis and lenis glottal stop.
Moar info pliz
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:15 pm
by Richard W
CaesarVincens wrote:
So, for example the oft cited Cockney pronunciation of the word "bottle" /bɔʔl/ or common American pronunciation of "button" /bʌʔn̩/
I'm sure there is a language out there somewhere that has long vowels and post-vocalic or intervocalic glottal stops.
Several. Cockney itself amongst English dialects, and if you want the contrast in standard orthography, just go to Thai.
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:06 am
by Αυτοβοτα
Richard W wrote:CaesarVincens wrote:
So, for example the oft cited Cockney pronunciation of the word "bottle" /bɔʔl/ or common American pronunciation of "button" /bʌʔn̩/
I'm sure there is a language out there somewhere that has long vowels and post-vocalic or intervocalic glottal stops.
Several. Cockney itself amongst English dialects, and if you want the contrast in standard orthography, just go to Thai.
The Proto Mixe-Zoque language has an interesting array of vowel options regarding that, if I understand you correctly.
As the
Wiki gives them:
Code: Select all
V – short vowel
V' – short vowel with glottal stop
VV – long vowel
V'V – long vowel with medial glottal stop
VV' – long vowel with final glottal stop
Vh – short vowel with h
Re: Pauses with or instead of Long Vowels
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:42 pm
by vokzhen
According to a grammar of Ayutla Mixe I found, it even contrasts Vʰ and VVʰ (vowels) with Vh and VVh (closed syllables). [Also, most varieties of Mixe - though not Ayutla - are described as having three vowel lengths]. At least some Oto-Mangean languages have a similar contrast contrast between long, ʔ-interrupted, and h-interrupted vowels (almost all of them at least have plain versus creaky or plain versus ʔ-interrupted). And Mayan often have both short and long vowels with h-codas and ʔ-codas plus VʔV, except in Mayan they're usually described as vowel-consonant sequences, I think, though they sometimes act like single vowels (/oo/ is [oo] but /oʔo/ is [ɵʔʉ] in some Mam dialects), while in Mixe-Zoque and Oto-Mangean they're described as features of the vowels, though some of them clearly have vowel-consonant origins (one innovated VʰV from things like ahi > eʰe [made-up example, can't find the language now]).
Pretty sure I remember some languages - something Salish or Wakashan maybe? - that are in free variation between VʔC' and VVC'. That is, ejectives are either preceded by a glottal stop or a long vowel, but it doesn't matter which. And apparently some of the Mayan languages that otherwise don't distinguish length lengthen vowels before an ejective/implosive.