Questions not about German Thread

[Salmoneus]

Is there any way to find reliable pronunciations for the inflected prepositions? IPA would do, not even necessarily voice recordings
They seem to be highly irregular, but because they're derived forms they aren't provided by teanglann.

[linguoboy]

Is there any way to find reliable pronunciations for the inflected prepositions? IPA would do, not even necessarily voice recordings. They seem to be highly irregular, but because they're derived forms they aren't provided by teanglann.

For these you pretty much need a dedicated resource for a particular dialect. Even TY Irish doesn't give all the West Cork forms; I had to look up the forms not covered in this dictionary (PDF).

[Salmoneus]

Thanks for the link. And people wonder why it's hard to resuscitate the language, when the best/only guide to actual pronunciation is some bloke's website?

Also, having read some of that website: yup, that explains a lot about the problems of the language. When enthusiasts seriously deride not only all learned Irish, but even 2 out of the 3 dialect areas as "low" and "degraded" through "illiteracy"...

Just waiting for him to identity The One Guy who speaks real Irish and everyone else is degenerate scum...

[linguoboy]

Thanks for the link. And people wonder why it's hard to resuscitate the language, when the best/only guide to actual pronunciation is some bloke's website?

Well, the best guide to actual pronunciation is the actual living speakers. But, yeah, that's the problem when the official organs aren't really interested in genuine native pronunciation, only what's easiest for L2 speakers.

Also, having read some of that website: yup, that explains a lot about the problems of the language. When enthusiasts seriously deride not only all learned Irish, but even 2 out of the 3 dialect areas as "low" and "degraded" through "illiteracy"...

His stuff is really useful, but I do kind of have to avert my eyes from the vicious prescriptivism every time I avail myself of it. He ended up swearing off the language for more than a year because of some of the fights he'd gotten into online, but he seems to be adding new material once more.

Fortunately, a bloke with the alias An Lon Dubh and a healthy descriptivist attitude does good work with the same dialect. I don't know if he has a page, but he maintains a cache of resources on the ILF website.

[Salmoneus]

Thanks for the link. And people wonder why it's hard to resuscitate the language, when the best/only guide to actual pronunciation is some bloke's website?

Well, the best guide to actual pronunciation is the actual living speakers. But, yeah, that's the problem when the official organs aren't really interested in genuine native pronunciation, only what's easiest for L2 speakers.

And that's understandable too, but surely there can be a compromise?
I mean, it's one thing getting some spectrometers to try to work out what the hell the slender R is in each particular subdialect in each particular context... and it's another to, say, have your dictionary mention the fact that "chugat" has a silent G...

[linguoboy]

I mean, it's one thing getting some spectrometers to try to work out what the hell the slender R is in each particular subdialect in each particular context... and it's another to, say, have your dictionary mention the fact that "chugat" has a silent G...

Ah, but does it? In West Cork, yes, but I'm not even sure that's true of all of Munster. Ó Siadhail gives chugainn with /g/ for Cois Fhairrge, but again is that characteristic of of Connacht or even Connemara?

[clawgrip]

I'm looking at these Japanese verb paradigms, and the line [辞書形]だけ is written there twice, with slightly different data. Is this two だけs with different meanings, or what is going on?

I only just noticed this thread now. It means that だけ has two different acceptable pronounciations when used with odakagata verbs.

[Salmoneus]

Somebody on the other board would like to know if there are any resources on the diachronic changes between Old Irish and Modern Irish.

[linguoboy]

Somebody on the other board would like to know if there are any resources on the diachronic changes between Old Irish and Modern Irish.

I would love to find such a thing. Or from Proto-Celtic to Old Irish. (Sengoidelc has some information, but it's not nearly as systematic or comprehensive as I'd like.)

[Salmoneus]

Somebody on the other board would like to know if there are any resources on the diachronic changes between Old Irish and Modern Irish.

I would love to find such a thing. Or from Proto-Celtic to Old Irish. (Sengoidelc has some information, but it's not nearly as systematic or comprehensive as I'd like.)

Wikipedia has an overview for PC to OIr - not detailed, but i think the level of detail the poster was looking for.

[Vlürch]

So, I just read that Mandarin 可愛 and Japanese 可愛い is a coincidence. Like, really? I mean, seriously?

[Travis B.]

From reading through the article on Jingpho on Wikipedia, I am confused by some of the IPA usage therein; namely the contrasting [p] versus [p-] versus [pʰ] and like for their plosives. What does [p] versus [p-] even mean?

[Vijay]

I looked through the history of that page and found who added that in there. I'm not sure they know IPA too well. I think p. 48 of this is probably a more accurate description of Jingpho phonology. It indicates that Jingpho has plain voiceless, voiceless aspirated, and (plain) voiced stops.

If the Burmese symbols that Wikipedia article uses are any indication, then probably by e.g. [p], they really mean , and by [p-], they really just mean [p].

[Zaarin]

Quick question: anyone have an explanation why Romance /k g/ palatalize before /a/ in French (cantere > chanter, gamba > jambe)? I understand palatalization triggered by /i u e/, but /a/ seems highly unlikely to trigger palatalization.

[Vijay]

Palatalization just in general is a very common sound change. It doesn't only happen before front vowels and IIRC doesn't require a trigger, either (I think this is an example of where there's no trigger, but maybe I'm wrong, and anyway, front vowels aren't the only trigger for palatalization, either).

[Salmoneus]

Quick question: anyone have an explanation why Romance /k g/ palatalize before /a/ in French (cantere > chanter, gamba > jambe)? I understand palatalization triggered by /i u e/, but /a/ seems highly unlikely to trigger palatalization.

In Rhaeto-Romance likewise. It's believed that /a/ was fronted at the time (and indeed often ended up raising, iirc).

[Zaarin]

Quick question: anyone have an explanation why Romance /k g/ palatalize before /a/ in French (cantere > chanter, gamba > jambe)? I understand palatalization triggered by /i u e/, but /a/ seems highly unlikely to trigger palatalization.

In Rhaeto-Romance likewise. It's believed that /a/ was fronted at the time (and indeed often ended up raising, iirc).

I suspected that might be the case, and it ends up raised in some cases in French also--my first thought of an example was cheval < cabalus.

[Salmoneus]

Small Irish question: doing a memrise course, it has the sentence "An bhfuil sibh brónach?" for "are you sad?"

This makes sense, which makes me suspicious. I'd have thought you'd translate that with "an bhfuil brón oraibh?" or something equally counter-intuitive. Is the memrise version just a second-language calque of the English, or is it legitimately an established construction? Is it parallel to the one I suggest, or is my suggestion just wrong?

[linguoboy]

Small Irish question: doing a memrise course, it has the sentence "An bhfuil sibh brónach?" for "are you sad?"

This makes sense, which makes me suspicious. I'd have thought you'd translate that with "an bhfuil brón oraibh?" or something equally counter-intuitive. Is the memrise version just a second-language calque of the English, or is it legitimately an established construction? Is it parallel to the one I suggest, or is my suggestion just wrong?

Tá brón orm is a fixed expression for "I'm sorry". So I would interpret "An bhfuil brón oraibh?" as "Are youse sorry?" not "Are youse sad?"

If you want a less Englishy way of asking "Are youse sad?" there's always "An bhfuil gruaim oraibh?"

[Salmoneus]

Small Irish question: doing a memrise course, it has the sentence "An bhfuil sibh brónach?" for "are you sad?"

This makes sense, which makes me suspicious. I'd have thought you'd translate that with "an bhfuil brón oraibh?" or something equally counter-intuitive. Is the memrise version just a second-language calque of the English, or is it legitimately an established construction? Is it parallel to the one I suggest, or is my suggestion just wrong?

Tá brón orm is a fixed expression for "I'm sorry". So I would interpret "An bhfuil brón oraibh?" as "Are youse sorry?" not "Are youse sad?"

If you want a less Englishy way of asking "Are youse sad?" there's always "An bhfuil gruaim oraibh?"

But should I want a less Englishy way? Is the direct "are you sad?" form a modern calque, or is it already fine? It just seemed odd to me given that the non-inquisitive form uses the entirely different "sadness is on me" form. Is the English-like construction only used in inquisitives?

[linguoboy]

But should I want a less Englishy way?

Tá siad ar do rogha agat.

Is the direct "are you sad?" form a modern calque, or is it already fine?

This is something of a false dichotomy. Modern calques will be understood by everybody--even native speakers, because they hear so many of them. So it ultimately comes down to what your purpose is.

[Salmoneus]

*grumpy/despairing response deleted - the attitudes around this language are getting to me, I think*

Yes, it's my choice... but it's not a meaningful choice if there's no way short of going to a gaeltacht of finding out what the significance of either choice is. Is using the equational/copula construction perceived as an English calque, or has it been that way for centuries now? Is using the prepositional construction in inquisitives perceived as 'correct', or is it a hypercorrection that marks out particularly lazy learners? I have no way of knowing, so telling me it's up to me isn't very helpful. If someone asked the equivalent question about English, would you answer in the same way?

The question is particularly pressing given the attitudes that people seem to have toward anything not perfectly 'native'. I know I'm unlikely to ever meet a native speaker anyway, but knowing that if I did meet one I oughtn't to speak Irish to them as it's liable to offend is kind of a dampner on the whole project, to be honest...

[linguoboy]

Yes, it's my choice... but it's not a meaningful choice if there's no way short of going to a gaeltacht of finding out what the significance of either choice is.

What I'm saying is that it's not as significant a choice as you seem to be making it out to be. Most people are thrilled to find you can speak any Irish. This idea that fluent speakers are scrutinising every morphosyntactic choice a learner makes in order to find sources of offence strikes me as very...English, to be honest.

I did a quick search of some older literature to see if I could find examples of brónach being used with bí and I didn't find any. That could mean this usage is only about a century old, but it could also mean I just didn't look hard enough. But people would think you daft if you tried to speak like Peig Sayers, so glac go réidh é![*]

[*] "Tóg go bog é" is Béarlachas, I'm afraid.

[Salmoneus]

Yes, it's my choice... but it's not a meaningful choice if there's no way short of going to a gaeltacht of finding out what the significance of either choice is.

What I'm saying is that it's not as significant a choice as you seem to be making it out to be. Most people are thrilled to find you can speak any Irish. This idea that fluent speakers are scrutinising every morphosyntactic choice a learner makes in order to find sources of offence strikes me as very...English, to be honest.

This easy-goingness is not my perception of online speakers, since everywhere I've found any smidgen of Irish its always followed by angry condemnations of dublin irish, gaelscoil irish, standard irish, etc. Apparently it's learners who are destroying the language - if only it could remain spoken only by elderly farmers, or possibly by the occasional professional linguist, it wouldn't face any of these problems with impurity...
Sadly, that's also what I've heard (both via the internet and via people in Ireland) about RL native speakers. I do appreciate this probably doesn't apply to all native speakers, of course, but it's offputting nonetheless, since these seem to be the loudest people.

I did a quick search of some older literature

Thank you!

to see if I could find examples of brónach being used with bí and I didn't find any. That could mean this usage is only about a century old, but it could also mean I just didn't look hard enough.

But you imply that it may actually be a (widespread, non-derogated) usage? Rather than just something some random guy on the internet said once without thinking?

so glac go réidh é![*]
[*] "Tóg go bog é" is Béarlachas, I'm afraid.

I should clarify: I don't actually speak Irish. I'm still at the stage of simple sentences and limited vocabulary.

[linguoboy]

This easy-goingness is not my perception of online speakers, since everywhere I've found any smidgen of Irish its always followed by angry condemnations of dublin irish, gaelscoil irish, standard irish, etc. Apparently it's learners who are destroying the language - if only it could remain spoken only by elderly farmers, or possibly by the occasional professional linguist, it wouldn't face any of these problems with impurity...

Yeah, well, that's the Internet, isn't it? The average fandom discussion is not going to make you expect a fan convention to be a welcoming place either, but most actually are.

My Irish is shit, but I've yet to have anyone I've spoken it with in real life tell me that. As I say, they're simply chuffed someone makes the effort to speak it at all.

But you imply that it may actually be a (widespread, non-derogated) usage? Rather than just something some random guy on the internet said once without thinking?

See here: http://www.focloir.ie/ga/dictionary/ei/sad.

The Foclóir Nua Béarla-Gaeilge seems to accurately reflect contemporary usage, from what I can tell.

I should clarify: I don't actually speak Irish. I'm still at the stage of simple sentences and limited vocabulary.

Sentences don't get much simpler than those!