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zompist bboard • View topic - Questions not about German Thread

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:39 pm 
Sanno
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Like the German thread, but not for German.

In my case, this isn't so much a question as a cry of woe and a vain appeal to the gods. Irish. Is there anyway humans might be able to speak it? Palatalisation seems vaguely possible in theory if not in practice, but velarisation might as well be telling me to clap with my tail. As for /ɟa̠ːɾˠhəɟ/ and /dʲɔ̝̈x/ and /ɡɨ̞ɾˠtʲ/... you're just mocking me now. I can do /g/, no problem, but beyond that... (and why isn't that velarised, anyway?)

Do people actually do all this stuff? There's no tricks or cheats or anything to translate that into normal stuff that western european tongues can do? I have a kid's learn-irish book somewhere, and I'm pretty sure that leaves all the weird stuff out entirely - presumably children aren't expected to learn the glossogymnastical stuff (huh - didn't realise how dirty that word was 'till I wrote it) until they reach puberty, which is probably only decent.

The fact I'm not confident about phonemic length either isn't a great help, but it's a relatively minor obstacle. And the orthography that's both counterintuitive and inconsistent is frankly no problem at all, given that I can't say any of the words anyway.

I should just try to look at the grammar instead, given that that might actually be comprehensible, but I struggle when I can't at least pretend to be able to pronounce the examples...


Anyway, if anyone has any tips or tricks or one simple thing to make Irish possible, please do share.

Failing that, I'll repeat my request of ten years ago (because I forgot the answer): anyone recommend a book to learn Irish with? Pointless to spend money when it's impossible, I know, but I'm vain and stubborn. I'm obviously OK with understanding grammar and terminology, though i would like something vaguely learn-y and useful rather than just a theoretical grammar textbook or anything.


Anyway, this is a sort of silly and pointless thread I know, but maybe somebody else will have some question about a non-German language at some point and I'll be able to berate them for not using the proper thread...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:43 pm 
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Yes, I've been entirely wondering how in the bloody 'ell I'm supposed to make a velarized /m/...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:00 am 
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Why isn't g velarized, you say? How can you put a secondary articulation on a sound which has that as its primary articulation?

(g is already completely velar - it can't be velarized)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:50 pm 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:27 pm 
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Not 100% sure if this is the right thread, but...

Are there English verbs which don't have inflected pasts? Just now, I tried to put 'double-take' into the past tense, but the only way I could get it to sound right was by putting it periphrastically, i.e. 'did a double-take' (note that 'he double-takes' is perfectly fine to me), so I started wondering if there were other verbs like that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:18 pm 
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:06 am 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:52 am 
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So I'm a bit confused about Semitic transliteration because sources seem to be conflicting. Is <q> /q/ or /kʼ/ (or, for Arabic, /kˁ/)? If it is /kʼ/, I don't see why it's not written <ḳ> analogous to the other emphatics...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:15 pm 
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What's "Semitic" transliteration? Each Semitic language has its own systems. And of course it's /q/, what else, but whether it's [q] or not depends on the language and dialect. If you mean Proto-Semitic, then it's */kʼ/, which became /q/ in non-Ethiopian.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:39 pm 
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v.10.2


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:24 pm 
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No.




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:34 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:55 pm 
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It's the same in British English writing: £2,317.28


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:53 pm 
Sanno
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But he was asking about Spanish...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:48 am 
Avisaru
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What do you find hard about velarizing things? I couldn't imagine what's so hard about it.

In any case, isn't it the most important thing that you palatalize all the consonants that should be palatalized? In learning a foreign language, you mainly want your phonemic distinctions right, even if your pronounciation is off. Later, you can focus on improving your pronounciation.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:32 pm 
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Velarization isn't phonemic in my L1 (or any language where I have ever had access to a community of speakers in RL); it should hardly be surprising therefore that I have a problem knowing how to do it, or knowing whether I've done it or not.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:59 pm 
Avisaru
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I think the best way to do it: pretend you are talking with a russian accent. If you do that, you tend to velarize everything.

Then try to not velarize the palatalized things.

Et voila, you speak irish with the proper broad and slender consonants (velarized and palatalized).

I also do not speak a language with contrastive velarization or palatalization (though portuguese does have phonetic palatalization all over the place).


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