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zompist bboard • View topic - Questions not about German Thread

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:02 pm 
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OK, since I've progressed from staring longingly at Irish to "learning" it (so far only duolingo and memrise), and since I don't want to monopolise the linguistic struggles thread, I thought I might put some questions here.

Ubh - this seems to have a /v/ in it, but shouldn't it be /w/? Is this just an irregular spelling, or is there something i'm missing?

Broad vs slender is still killing me. But my most pressingly problematic phoneme is /r_j/. Soundfiles seem quite clearly to me to show this being a voiced fricative (that I interpret as /Z/, but presumably is more forward than my /Z/), or sometimes what sounds very much to me like /d/... but only sometimes. It seems the official (that is, dictionary, presumably gaelteacht) Munster dialect doesn't do this, but Ulster and Connact seem to do it more, and the forvo climbs from random actual irish people seem to do it even more - maybe this is an L2 thing as well as a dialect thing? I can't work out where the dictionary soundfiles do /Z/, when they do /d/, and when they do /r/, except that the stronger pronunciations are much more common at the ends of words.

I wouldn't be surprised if something was going on here, because how I'm meant to palatalise a tap, I don't know. So I'm to do one thing with the tip of my tongue, moving it quickly near the front of my mouth, while doing something totally different in a totally different part of the mouth with the bit just behind the tip? How is that possible!?

Come to think of it, does anybody know what the Irish flap is meant to be anyway? I've always mostly ignored the detail of flaps, but it seems there's quite a variety possible. I can tap against the flat bit behind the teeth, I can flap backward over the ridge, or I can flap forward over the ridge - the latter seems less natural, but apparently it's the only thing that's "officially" a flap. What does Irish use? My instinct has been to try to use the post-dental tap for broad and the ridge-flap for slender, but wikipedia suggests this is the only coronal pair NOT distinguished by POV...


Oh, and don't worry about the first question, i think I've worked it out now. It's because although everyone tells you that broad <bh> is /w/, /w/ is actually [v] (velarised) in word-final (or every) position, yes?



[On the positive side: the grammar seems pretty easy, so far. Not coming naturally due to everything being a different order to every other language I know, but makes sense, seems like it'll come naturally eventually. And I think I've worked out the theory of velarisation, although actually applying it in practice is another matter...]


EDIT: ok, saibhir - everyone seems to agree that the first vowel is something like [E]. But it seems like it 'ought' to be [{] at most, and probably a centralised [a]. Am I missing a rule, or is this an exception, do you know?

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 7:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:28 am 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:22 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:09 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:16 pm 
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I'm currently reading Nicoline v.d. Sijs, De geschiedenis van het Nederlands in een notendop, Amsterdam 2006 ("History of the Dutch language in a nutshell"). On p. 116, she decribes that in the 18th century a differentiation arose in forming relative sentences, using wie + adposition for persons and waar + adposition for things. Then she writes Dit kunstmatige onderscheid woordt momenteel veelvuldig verwaarloosd; in de spreektaal bestaat de regel eigenlijk überhaupt niet. ("This artificial distinction is currently often neglected; in the spoken language this rule actually doesn't exist at all.")
Is that kind of usage of German überhaupt really a thing? I mean, it wouldn't be the first German loan word in Dutch, but it still stands out, not even being adapted to Dutch orthography or calqued from native material like others (e.g. bewusteloos, waanzinnig).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:03 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:26 am 
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Dank je wel!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:59 pm 
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I'm looking at , and the line [辞書形]だけ is written there twice, with slightly different data. Is this two だけs with different meanings, or what is going on?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Irish again...

First: despite the long vowel, it seems like most dialects pronounce <damhán> (as in 'damhán alla') as /d@un/. OK, the mh takes precedence here and forces the diphthong. But in Munster, stress is attracted to that long vowel. So my question is, what order does this happen in? Does the diphthong form first, eliminating the long vowel, so stress isn't attracted to it, so Munster has the same pronunciation as everywhere else? Or does stress move to the second syllable first, so the first syllable is unstressed and so doesn't form the diphthong? So in Munster is it /d@un/, or /d@"BAn/? (or something else entirely because this is all impossible to understand?)

Second: <cait>, plural of <cat>. I would expect this to be /cat_j/ (although I think I'll have to have something closer to [{], because distinguishing four subtly different locations of /a/ just doesn't seem feasible to me). However, some people over on Duolingo were saying it's more like /k_eIt_j/ (i.e. treating the <i> as the main vowel and the <a> as just indicating a broad consonant). Is this just nonsense, or is that a dialect form, or what?

Third, and more generally: how OK is it to mix and match dialect features? I think I'd like to use some Munster features, like stress attracted to heavy second syllables, and rounded /a:/, partly because that's the part of the country I have the most connexion to, and partly because it would just make things easier. But I'm not sure I want to go full broad-Munster-dialect, and what's more I'm also tempted to use some specifically non-Munster features, like alveopalatal slender <ll> and <nn> (since these seem standard outside Munster, and because I need everything I can get to try to get clear blue water between the broad and the slender and that seems like an easy way at least for the geminates).
Is that sort of 'all-over-the-place' learner's accent considered OK, or just abominable?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm 
Avisaru
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I suspect that just being able to distinguish broad and slender in the first place will probably get you a 'gosh u have a good accent' response

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:23 pm 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:19 am 
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I have a question: is Welsh a real language or was it just created by the Basque monks so Basque wouldn't look so weird?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:49 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:11 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:18 pm 
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A similar Munster Stress question...

Do diphthongs count as heavy for the purposes of attracting stress?
And do diphthongs and/or long vowels not shown as such but emerging before final geminate sonorants or clusters still attract stress, or does this process happen after the stress shift?

for instance, verbs. caitheann sibh - is the first syllable stress and the second schwa, or is the second stressed and long/diphthongised?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:15 pm 
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Thanks. (and rf was a typo for rd).

To clarify: with verbs, does this mean stress also doesn't shift to the -íonn (etc) in some present tense verbs? And can stress still shift to the second syllable of a two-syllable root, or is it just fixed in verbs entirely?

Oh, and while I'm at it, I've reached a few words with seemingly silent letters, like codlach and tatnaíonn. Am I right in thinking that these are just there for etymological/morphological reasons, and aren't pronounced?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:37 am 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:19 am 
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