zompist bboard

I'm having a hard time coming up with how best to phrase this question, but is whether [x] becomes [h] or [k] when borrowed into English predictable with any reasonable amount of certainty? For example, I almost always hear [x] as [h] in loanwords from Spanish, but from other languages of Europe I hear [k] for it much more often, and I swear I've heard both in loans from Hebrew.

It seems to generally become /h/ word-initially (for example, "Hanukkah") and /k/ elsewhere ("loch," "Bach"). Bear in mind that most English loans from Spanish come from Mexican Spanish where <j> is often /h/ not /x/.

/k/ elsewhere ("loch," "Bach")

This may be caused/inspired/helped by the fact that /h/ can't occur in the coda of a syllable.

You may remember the Boston Marathon bomber guy: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dzhokhar_and ... n_Tsarnaev . The media seems to have finally settled on the pronunciation with /k/: At first, the pronunciation was variable; They used either /k/ and /h/, and stressed either the first or second syllable.

That reminds me, what about the name "Mohammed"? Does the Arabic have /h/? or is it actually /x/?

Terra wrote:

/k/ elsewhere ("loch," "Bach")

This may be caused/inspired/helped by the fact that /h/ can't occur in the coda of a syllable.

You may remember the Boston Marathon bomber guy: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dzhokhar_and ... n_Tsarnaev . The media seems to have finally settled on the pronunciation with /k/: At first, the pronunciation was variable; They used either /k/ and /h/, and stressed either the first or second syllable.

That reminds me, what about the name "Mohammed"? Does the Arabic have /h/? or is it actually /x/?

If I'm not mistaken, it actually has /ħ/.

Zaarin wrote:

Terra wrote:That reminds me, what about the name "Mohammed"? Does the Arabic have /h/? or is it actually /x/?

If I'm not mistaken, it actually has /ħ/.

Yep, it's محمد in Arabic, with ﺣ ḥah

As do Mahmoud and Ahmed, which in the UK at least seem to mostly be [h] or zero (like [a:]med).

The only Hebrew (> Yiddish) word I can think of that regularly gets [k] is תחת /'toxes/ 'butt', which ends up sounding more like tukiss.

Astraios wrote:The only Hebrew (> Yiddish) word I can think of that regularly gets [k] is תחת /'toxes/ 'butt', which ends up sounding more like tukiss.

In American English, however, it also spawned the variant tush /ˈtʊʃ/. That was my primary introduction to the word; I've read tuchis more than I've ever heard it spoken and didn't initially make the connexion.

Some varieties of English maintain /x/ as [x], notably Irish-English and Scottish-English.

linguoboy wrote:Some varieties of English maintain /x/ as [x], notably Irish-English and Scottish-English.

Indeed. Only a Sassenach would pronounce "loch" with a final /k/.

araceli wrote:

linguoboy wrote:Some varieties of English maintain /x/ as [x], notably Irish-English and Scottish-English.

Indeed. Only a Sassenach would pronounce "loch" with a final /k/.

And conversely quite a few Americans I know consider any language with [x] (or similar sounds like [ç χ]) as "sounding like German." I have heard languages described as "sounding like German," based on no other criteria, ranging from Irish to Hebrew to Sindarin.

Zaarin wrote:And conversely quite a few Americans I know consider any language with [x] (or similar sounds like [ç χ]) as "sounding like German." I have heard languages described as "sounding like German," based on no other criteria, ranging from Irish […] to Sindarin. :(

Not just American thing, I've heard Poles describing Irish as sounding like German. It's probably not only [x] in this instance, though: after all, Poles love their [x], and no true Pole would ever consider Polish being anything like German.
and Sindarin is just a poor man's Irish

Aili Meilani wrote:

Zaarin wrote:And conversely quite a few Americans I know consider any language with [x] (or similar sounds like [ç χ]) as "sounding like German." I have heard languages described as "sounding like German," based on no other criteria, ranging from Irish […] to Sindarin.

Not just American thing, I've heard Poles describing Irish as sounding like German. It's probably not only [x] in this instance, though: after all, Poles love their [x], and no true Pole would ever consider Polish being anything like German.
and Sindarin is just a poor man's Irish

Irish does at least sound more like German than Hebrew or Sindarin.

Zaarin wrote:Irish does at least sound more like German than Hebrew or Sindarin.

I think that's quite arguable. The phonology of Modern Hebrew as spoken by Ashkenazim is basically a Venn diagram of the phonologies of Mediaeval Hebrew and Standard German.

When have you heard Irish spoken?

linguoboy wrote:

Zaarin wrote:Irish does at least sound more like German than Hebrew or Sindarin.

I think that's quite arguable. The phonology of Modern Hebrew as spoken by Ashkenazim is basically a Venn diagram of the phonologies of Mediaeval Hebrew and Standard German.

When have you heard Irish spoken?

I admit I'm more familiar with Mizrahi and Yemenite Hebrew.

My knowledge of Irish admittedly mostly comes from music, and I know some musicians' Irish is very bad--basically singing Irish because it's chic. But also artists with better Irish like Máire Brennan and so forth.

Many languages sound quite different when sung than spoken, and I think Irish is one of those. Here's what Brennan's spoken Irish sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEYXcG96aWg.

The Irish I hear in songs is entirely sung by women and some of them, especially Enya, basically make it seem like Irish is a vowel-only language spoken by fairies that mere humans could only pretend to reproduce. Few languages are as beautiful to my ears as that musical form of Irish. But "real" Irish, I imagine , must at least have a few consonants here and there. The spoken Irish in that video doesnt sound a whole lot different than English. compare to her song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RylfpJdvkrE (at least I think that's her singing, with echo effects to make it sound like more than one person_)

Publipis wrote:The Irish I hear in songs is entirely sung by women and some of them, especially Enya, basically make it seem like Irish is a vowel-only language spoken by fairies that mere humans could only pretend to reproduce. Few languages are as beautiful to my ears as that musical form of Irish. But "real" Irish, I imagine , must at least have a few consonants here and there. The spoken Irish in that video doesnt sound a whole lot different than English. compare to her song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RylfpJdvkrE (at least I think that's her singing, with echo effects to make it sound like more than one person_)

Have you listened much to any Hawaiian artists? Hawaiian is pretty notorious for its frugal use of consonants, and the islands seem to be unusually blessed with talented vocalists. Here's a piece from the late, great Israel Kamakawiwoʻole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_17vGYa81s.

Publipis wrote:The Irish I hear in songs is entirely sung by women and some of them, especially Enya, basically make it seem like Irish is a vowel-only language spoken by fairies that mere humans could only pretend to reproduce. Few languages are as beautiful to my ears as that musical form of Irish. But "real" Irish, I imagine , must at least have a few consonants here and there.

For a completely different (but--to my mind, at least, equally beautiful) experience of sung Irish, listen to some sean-nós singers. (My personal favourite is Diarmuid Ó Súilleabháin, partly on account of the dialect [West Cork], but there are several tremendously talented singers who perform in this style. For good measure, here is a duet between Diarmuid's brother Eoiní and Nell Ní Chróinín.)

linguoboy wrote:Many languages sound quite different when sung than spoken, and I think Irish is one of those. Here's what Brennan's spoken Irish sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEYXcG96aWg.

You're right. It does sound quite different.

Publipis wrote:The Irish I hear in songs is entirely sung by women and some of them, especially Enya, basically make it seem like Irish is a vowel-only language spoken by fairies that mere humans could only pretend to reproduce. Few languages are as beautiful to my ears as that musical form of Irish. But "real" Irish, I imagine , must at least have a few consonants here and there. The spoken Irish in that video doesnt sound a whole lot different than English. compare to her song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RylfpJdvkrE (at least I think that's her singing, with echo effects to make it sound like more than one person_)

I like Enya on the rare songs where she doesn't overdub herself a hundred times and goes more acoustic. :/

linguoboy wrote:

Publipis wrote:The Irish I hear in songs is entirely sung by women and some of them, especially Enya, basically make it seem like Irish is a vowel-only language spoken by fairies that mere humans could only pretend to reproduce. Few languages are as beautiful to my ears as that musical form of Irish. But "real" Irish, I imagine , must at least have a few consonants here and there.

For a completely different (but--to my mind, at least, equally beautiful) experience of sung Irish, listen to some sean-nós singers. (My personal favourite is Diarmuid Ó Súilleabháin, partly on account of the dialect [West Cork], but there are several tremendously talented singers who perform in this style. For good measure, here is a duet between Diarmuid's brother Eoiní and Nell Ní Chróinín.)

I like it. It has a sort of warbly mellifluous quality I'm more used to associating with Eastern music.

Zaarin wrote:It has a sort of warbly mellifluous quality I'm more used to associating with Eastern music.

A.k.a. melisma.

Not all sean-nós singing is this highly ornamented, though. (The term is really a catchall, literally meaning "old style".) Particularly in the north--where Clannad originated--the dominant sean-nós style is much simpler.

Astraios wrote:As do Mahmoud and Ahmed, which in the UK at least seem to mostly be [h] or zero (like [a:]med).
.

Yup. In Dutch these are pronounced with the uvular [X] because that's the closest corresponding sound in Dutch.

Loaning of English and French /g/ is also interesting in Dutch. Older loanwords often have /X/ (fr. garage -> /χɑraːʒə/; which is interesting as the non-dutch ʒ phoneme is not changed to something else). Newer loanwords usually just copy the English pronounciation for younger speakers, but older speakers don't do this. Hence you get things like en. Google -> Dutch /kuχələ/ 'to google something'. However, younger speakers will never do this and most older speaker also not by now.

sirdanilot wrote:In Dutch these are pronounced with the uvular [X] because that's the closest corresponding sound in Dutch.

Nonsense, true Dutch's got /ɣ̟/ and /x̟/ but fortunately no vomiting-sawmill-like /χ̠ˤ/.

Dē Graut Bʉr wrote:

sirdanilot wrote:In Dutch these are pronounced with the uvular [X] because that's the closest corresponding sound in Dutch.

Nonsense, true Dutch's got /ɣ̟/ and /x̟/ but fortunately no vomiting-sawmill-like /χ̠ˤ/.

Judging from your location, you are from Brabant or somewhere around that region, and then that makes sense yes, but standard Holland Dutch (which, sadly to some, is the most-spoken variety of Dutch simply because it has the most inhabitants) does have the sawmill uvular thing you are talking about, though I don't think it's pharyngealized as you indicated. When I talk 'standard' Dutch my /X/ is definitely uvular, when I talk my own dialect it is [h] or a lowered [χ], which sounds like a h with slight uvular friction, depending on the environment.

sirdanilot wrote:

Dē Graut Bʉr wrote:

sirdanilot wrote:In Dutch these are pronounced with the uvular [X] because that's the closest corresponding sound in Dutch.

Nonsense, true Dutch's got /ɣ̟/ and /x̟/ but fortunately no vomiting-sawmill-like /χ̠ˤ/.

Judging from your location, you are from Brabant or somewhere around that region, and then that makes sense yes, but standard Holland Dutch (which, sadly to some, is the most-spoken variety of Dutch simply because it has the most inhabitants) does have the sawmill uvular thing you are talking about, though I don't think it's pharyngealized as you indicated. When I talk 'standard' Dutch my /X/ is definitely uvular, when I talk my own dialect it is [h] or a lowered [χ], which sounds like a h with slight uvular friction, depending on the environment.

Yes, I am indeed from Broabant. As for the pharyngealisation, I'll admit that I added that just to make it uglier.