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Chinese thread
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:07 am
by Qwynegold
I've just begun studying Chinese (Mandain of course) and thought I'd make a thread for all the questions that I will have during these few months.
The difficulty with the phonology is that there is too much allophonic variation. And that different sources disagree with each other about pronunciation. I've just had my first class, and I was listening to my teacher pronunce diphthongs. To me they sounded like actual diphthongs rather than semivowel + vowel combinations, am I right? It was like dian [tiɛn] and wo [uo]. Or maybe [ti̯ɛn], [u̯o] if there really is such a thing as a three way contrast between the phones [j, i̯, i]. I thought that the prominent vowel sounded a little bit different than in Finnish. In Finnish, to my ear, both vowels vowels sound pretty much equally syllabic in diphthongs. The teacher definitely did not have [j, w] in her speech though.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:56 am
by sirdanilot
Just copy what the teacher says. If she is not a very bad teacher, she will probably represent a variety of Mandarin that people will at least understand and that sounds Mandarin-y enough for listeners. This goes for any language, really.
Of course if her pronounciation differs a lot from what you are reading, then you might have a teacher who speaks some kind of dialect rather than what is regarded the standard language you are trying to learn. For example I had an Egyptian Arabic teacher. But a good teacher (like she was) will make you aware of these things. For example she explained that she did not make a distinction between /th/ and /s/. And if you know that beforehand it's okay.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:53 am
by linguoboy
Qwynegold wrote:The difficulty with the phonology is that there is too much allophonic variation.
Dude, you've learned
English.
Qwynegold wrote:I've just had my first class, and I was listening to my teacher pronunce diphthongs. To me they sounded like actual diphthongs rather than semivowel + vowel combinations, am I right?
That's how I perceive them. Whether that makes this analysis "right" or not is another question.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:56 am
by Qwynegold
sirdanilot wrote:Just copy what the teacher says. If she is not a very bad teacher, she will probably represent a variety of Mandarin that people will at least understand and that sounds Mandarin-y enough for listeners. This goes for any language, really.
Of course if her pronounciation differs a lot from what you are reading, then you might have a teacher who speaks some kind of dialect rather than what is regarded the standard language you are trying to learn. For example I had an Egyptian Arabic teacher. But a good teacher (like she was) will make you aware of these things. For example she explained that she did not make a distinction between /th/ and /s/. And if you know that beforehand it's okay.
Yeah, I know. I just wanted to know what the "real", generally accepted analysis is. But maybe there is no such thing.
She's from Nanjing. I can't quite remember what she said about her dialect.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:59 am
by Qwynegold
linguoboy wrote:Qwynegold wrote:The difficulty with the phonology is that there is too much allophonic variation.
Dude, you've learned
English.
Lol. I can read and write English, but speaking...
linguoboy wrote:Qwynegold wrote:I've just had my first class, and I was listening to my teacher pronunce diphthongs. To me they sounded like actual diphthongs rather than semivowel + vowel combinations, am I right?
That's how I perceive them. Whether that makes this analysis "right" or not is another question.
Aha, you're hearing the same things as me!
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:07 am
by linguoboy
Qwynegold wrote:She's from Nanjing. I can't quite remember what she said about her dialect.
Stereotypically, Southern speakers lack the retroflex/dental contrast. My teacher, for instance, was from Nantong and I observed both mergers and hypercorrection in her speech (e.g. spontaneously pronouncing 從 as
chóng). On the plus side, this meant she had no
érhuà in her speech, easily the most annoying feature of the Beijing accent. but one of my coworkers is from Nanjing and I don't notice anything nonstandard about her pronunciation. (She grew up in the PRC whereas my teacher moved first to Taiwan, then here.)
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:32 pm
by Qwynegold
linguoboy wrote:Qwynegold wrote:She's from Nanjing. I can't quite remember what she said about her dialect.
Stereotypically, Southern speakers lack the retroflex/dental contrast. My teacher, for instance, was from Nantong and I observed both mergers and hypercorrection in her speech (e.g. spontaneously pronouncing 從 as
chóng). On the plus side, this meant she had no
érhuà in her speech, easily the most annoying feature of the Beijing accent. but one of my coworkers is from Nanjing and I don't notice anything nonstandard about her pronunciation. (She grew up in the PRC whereas my teacher moved first to Taiwan, then here.)
I have a friend who's studied in Shanghai and Singapore. He has also talked about how annoying erhua is. :/
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:58 pm
by Qwynegold
Has anyone installed Chinese IME on their computer and is willing to assist me? I would also like to get Japanese installed if possible. I have Windows 7, and this is what my menus look like:
- Språkinställningar.PNG (170.12 KiB) Viewed 5699 times
There are so many options, and I don't know what their difference is or what to choose. Here's my translations of these menus:
Left window
Tangentbord och andra inmatningsspråk
Keyboard and other input languages
Klicka på Byt tangentbord om du vill ändra på tangentbord eller inmatningsspråk.
Click on Change Keyboard if you want to change keyboard or input language.
Middle window
Standardinmatningsspråk
Standard input language
Välj det inmatningsspråk som du vill använda som standard för alla inmatningsfält.
Select the input language that you want to use as standard for all input fields.
Installerade tjänster
Installed services
Välj de tjänster som du vill använda för varje inmatningsspråk som visas i listan. Använd knapparna Lägg till och Ta bort om du vill ändra listan.
Choose the services you want to use for each input language that is shown in the list. Use the buttons Add and Delete if you want to change the list.
Right window
Välj vilka språk du vill lägga till genom att markera motsvarande kryssrutor nedan.
Choose which languages you want to add by checking the corresponding boxes below.
-Japanska (Japan)
-Japanese (Japan)
--Tangentbordslayout
--Keyboard layout
---Japansk
---Japanese
---Microsoft IME
---Visa fler...
---Show more...
-Kinesiska (förenklad, Folkrepubliken Kina)
-Chinese (simplified, Peoples Republic of China)
--Tangentbordslayout
--Keyboard layout
---Chinese Simplified QuanPin (version 6.0)
---Chinese Simplified ShuangPin (version 6.0)
---Chinese Simplified ZhengMa (version 6.0)
---Kinesisk (förenklad) - amerikanskt tangentbord
---Chinese (simplified) - American keyboard
---Kinesisk (förenklad) - Microsoft Pinyin ABC-inmatningsformat
---Chinese (simplified) - Microsoft Pinyin ABC input format
---Kinesisk (förenklad) - Microsoft Pinyin New Experience-inmatning
---Chinese (simplified) - Microsoft Pinyin New Experience input
---Visa fler...
---Show more...
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:37 pm
by Rui
If you're learning via pinyin then do the pinyin one. I have both New Experience and Classic Input on mine, but they're pretty much the same thing. New Experience waits for you to type out a whole phrase before predicting what characters you want, Classic Input does it syllable by syllable.
Re: diphthongs I think you'll find in rapid speech there isn't much of a different between vowel+vowel and semi-vowel+vowel combinations. vowel+vowel combos are much more prevalent in stressed or emphasized syllables (i.e. if you're pronouncing syllable by syllable as your teacher probably was doing)
Also, having done most of my Chinese learning in Beijing, I find the lack of erhua weird. Saying "haowan", "chuan", "nali" etc. sounds bizarre compared to "haowanr", "chuanr", "nar", etc. Southern accents sound very dainty and feminine to my ears, regardless of speaker.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:29 pm
by sirdanilot
Beijing chinese sounds like pirate talk with all the r's. I really like it haha
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:59 pm
by linguoboy
Rui wrote:Also, having done most of my Chinese learning in Beijing, I find the lack of erhua weird. Saying "haowan", "chuan", "nali" etc. sounds bizarre compared to "haowanr", "chuanr", "nar", etc. Southern accents sound very dainty and feminine to my ears, regardless of speaker.
Chuànr is the only one of these I rhotacise because I first had them in Beijing. I also for some reason alternate between
yīdiǎn and
yīdiǎnr, probably because I began saying
yīdiǎnr as a way of mocking
érhuà.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:26 am
by Qwynegold
Rui wrote:If you're learning via pinyin then do the pinyin one. I have both New Experience and Classic Input on mine, but they're pretty much the same thing. New Experience waits for you to type out a whole phrase before predicting what characters you want, Classic Input does it syllable by syllable.
Aha. The one you call classic is the one labelled Microsoft Pinyin ABC? Maybe that would be better than New Experience because I will be working with my flashcard program, so there will be a lot of single words or even just single characters. But it sounds like New Experience might be faster when typing actual text? How does it know when to convert one's key strokes to characters? Another issue is that if one needs to type an unknown character, then pinyin input is of no help.
Rui wrote:Re: diphthongs I think you'll find in rapid speech there isn't much of a different between vowel+vowel and semi-vowel+vowel combinations. vowel+vowel combos are much more prevalent in stressed or emphasized syllables (i.e. if you're pronouncing syllable by syllable as your teacher probably was doing)
Oh, I see. But aren't some consonant + semivowel combinations difficult to pronounce? Like idk, [j] might be lost after alveo-palatals, and whatabout [w] after labials? Does that combination exist?
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:29 am
by Qwynegold
sirdanilot wrote:Beijing chinese sounds like pirate talk with all the r's. I really like it haha
I know, right?! I'll annoy my friend once I'll be able to converse, and be all errrrrrrrrhua, Qiqiharrrrrr, and so on.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:54 am
by linguoboy
Qwynegold wrote:Oh, I see. But aren't some consonant + semivowel combinations difficult to pronounce? Like idk, [j] might be lost after alveo-palatals, and whatabout [w] after labials? Does that combination exist?
No, it doesn't. Mandarin vowels actually underwent delabialising after labial initials, e.g. MC *muwŋ > Mand.
mèng (cf. Cant.
muhng).
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:57 am
by Qwynegold
Ah, thanks!
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:06 pm
by Rui
Qwynegold wrote:Rui wrote:If you're learning via pinyin then do the pinyin one. I have both New Experience and Classic Input on mine, but they're pretty much the same thing. New Experience waits for you to type out a whole phrase before predicting what characters you want, Classic Input does it syllable by syllable.
Aha. The one you call classic is the one labelled Microsoft Pinyin ABC? Maybe that would be better than New Experience because I will be working with my flashcard program, so there will be a lot of single words or even just single characters. But it sounds like New Experience might be faster when typing actual text? How does it know when to convert one's key strokes to characters? Another issue is that if one needs to type an unknown character, then pinyin input is of no help.
I find New Experience easier because most Mandarin words are more than one character long, so the options become much more specific and more likely to be accurate. Of course it does mess up every once in a while you have to remember to proofread.
linguoboy wrote:Qwynegold wrote:Oh, I see. But aren't some consonant + semivowel combinations difficult to pronounce? Like idk, [j] might be lost after alveo-palatals, and whatabout [w] after labials? Does that combination exist?
No, it doesn't. Mandarin vowels actually underwent delabialising after labial initials, e.g. MC *muwŋ > Mand.
mèng (cf. Cant.
muhng).
Don't forget about
bo, po, mo, fo! They have a [w] sound in there, but yes, they are the only syllables with labial initials that also have [w] in them. And [j] is definitely not lost after alveo-palatals, btw.
xia, xian, xiang, xie, xiong, xiu and equivalents with j and q initials all definitely have glides.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:46 pm
by linguoboy
Rui wrote:Don't forget about bo, po, mo, fo! They have a [w] sound in there, but yes, they are the only syllables with labial initials that also have [w] in them.
Really, you think there's a [w] in those? I honestly don't hear it.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:26 pm
by svld
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:32 pm
by Rui
It's certainly not [pɔ], etc., it could be [pu̯ɔ~pʊ̯ɔ] o_o Is this another dialect difference?
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:36 pm
by linguoboy
Okay, I do hear a glide there. But interestingly not when she segments the sound.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:46 am
by M Mira
I believe that's the result of a sound shift of non-glide, final /ɔ/ that started around the turn of the 20th century and the result has been the norm among the youth by 1949 but not the decision-makers, hence the discrepancy between pronunciation and orthography occur on both sides of the Strait.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade–Giles#Vowel_o
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:30 pm
by Hallow XIII
Rui wrote:It's certainly not [pɔ], etc., it could be [pu̯ɔ~pʊ̯ɔ] o_o Is this another dialect difference?
UO in those words is pretty common in Dongbei standard. Colloquial forms IME generally have no rounding at all: be pe me fe
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:25 am
by svld
Come to think of it, English too have that w~u in words like pork, more, and four.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:42 am
by KathTheDragon
It's very likely a dialectal feature. My idiolect is very close to the british standard, and I don't the onglides.
Re: Chinese thread
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:48 am
by Qwynegold
I'll write what the print outs we got say about the phonemes. I'll write just as she has written, except that I'm translating from Swedish. My comments are in red. Please tell me what you think.
Simple vowels 6 pcs
a - [A̜] Pronounced more open than in Swedish. Approximately as in "pappa", "kanna", "katt". These are all [ä] in Swedish. She has also drawn a chart where this vowel is indeed central low.
o - [o] Pronounced like Swedish "å" in words like "gå", "på", "lov", "få". These are all [o:].
e - [ɤ] The closest pronunciation is as "ö" in "kött". This is [œ]. We practiced this quite a bit in class, and it did actually sound very similar to [ø~œ], even though these are total opposites in terms of POA.
i - Pronunced like a Swedish i sound as in "bil" [i:], "sitta" [ɪ]. The spelling "yi" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
u - Pronounced like the hard (?) o sound in "sol", "pol", "stol", "bo", "ko". These are all [u:]. Absolutely not as a Swedish "u". [ɵ, ʉ:] The spelling "wu" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
ü - [y] This sound only appears after j, q, x and y, as well as n and l. They are pronunced with a clear y sound. The spelling "yu" is used when there is no consonant in the syllable. After j, q, x, y it is spelled with "u" without dots.
Compound vowels (finals) 13 pcs and "er"
Two vowels
1) The first vowel is stronger: ai, ei, ao, ou
ai [ai] Pronounced like the Swedish letter combination "aj", as in "kaj", "maj" and "paj". The teacher pronunces her own name Baihua something like [pɛixuɑ] though. We practiced this a bit. Is it maybe just her dialect?
ei [ei] Pronounced like the Swedish letter combination "ej" in "hej", "mig".
ao [ɑu] Pronounced "aå". Pronounced like the English "ow" sound in "how", "down". [ɑʊ], right?
ou [ou] Pronounced "åo". Pronounced like the "ow" sound in the English words "go", "note", "low".
2) The second vowel is stronger: ia, ua, uo, ie, üe
ia/ya [ia] Pronunced "ia" or pronounced like Swedish "-ja" in "Maja", "svaja". This seems to confirm what Rui said earlier. "Ya" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
ua/wa [uɑ] Pronounced "oa". Pronounced like the Swedish word "va?" [vä~ʋä] "Wa" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
uo/wo [uo] Pronounced "oå". Pronounced like "wa" in English words like "war" and "quark". "Wo" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
ie/ye [iɛ] Sounds like the Swedish words "ge", "genom", "regera". These are all [je:]. Which vowel height is right? "Ye" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
üe/ue/yue [yɛ] Pronounced "ye". Pinyin "ü"+"ê". This "e" should be pronounced more like a Swedish "e" [e:] than "ä" [ɛ:]. "Ü" is written like "u" though in the syllables "jue", "que", "xue" and "yue". "Üe" - pronounced. "Ue" - spelled. Yue is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
Triple vowels
The vowel in the middle is stronger: iao, iou, uai, uei
iao/yao [iɑu] Pronounced as -ia with a barely audible o in the end. Pronounced "iaå". <O> is [ʊ, u:] in Swedish, while <å> is [ɔ, o:]. :S "Yao" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
iou/iu/you [iou] The pronunciation varies between Swedish jo [ju:] and English yo in yoke, yo-yo. (Had trouble translating this sentence because it was so ungrammatical in Swedish. :S) "Iou" - pronounced. "Iu" - spelled. "You" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable. This makes no sense. Are there three different spellings? When is which used? And how is it pronounced in each environment?
uai/wai [uai] Pronounced "oaj". Pronounced approximately like English "why". "Wai" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable,
uei/ui/wei [uei] Pronounced "öej". C.f. with English words such as "waite". "Uei" - pronunced. "Ui" - spelled. "Wei" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable. Same issue here as with iou/iu/you. :S
er Pronounced with a thick American r, the pronunciation varies between people, somewhere between "ör" [œ:-] and "ar".
Nasal vowels = single or compound vowel followed by "-n" or "ng"
Front nasals "-n": Sounds that are pronounced through the nose and with the tongue in the front part of the mouth.
an [an] This "a" is pronounced approximately like a lone Chinese "a", but somewhat softer. (?) Similar to "an" in "Anna", "man", and "han".
en [ən] Pronounced "en".
ian/yan [iæn] Pronounced like Swedish -gen in "igen". [-je̞n] I think. "Yan" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
in/yin [in] Pronounced like Swedish -in in "finn". ['fɪn:] "Yin" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
uan/wan [uan] Pronounced "oan". Pronounced approximately like English "one". "Wan" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
üan/uan/yuan [yæn] Ü+an = üan Pronounced with clear y sound and weak ä [æ~e̞, æ:~ɛ:] sound, that is "üän". "Üan" - pronounced. "Uan" - spelled, used after j, q, x, and y without dots. "Yuan" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
uen/un/wen [uən] U+en = uen. Un is used when there is a consonant in the beginning of the syllable. Wen is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable. Is it ever spelled <uen> then?
üen/(ün)/un/yun [yn] Ün=ü+en=üen. "Üen"/"ün" - pronounced. "Un" - spelled, used after j, q, x, and y, wihout dots. "Yun" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable. What's the deal here? :S
Back nasal "-ng": Sounds pronounced through the nose and with the tongue in the back part of the mouth.
ang [ɑŋ] Pronounced "ang". Try that the words "mangel" ['mäŋ:el], "klang" ['kʰläŋ:] pronounced though the nose. (?)
eng [əŋ] Pronounced like Swedish -öng in sjöng. ['ɧœŋ:]
iang/yang [iɑŋ] Pronounced like Swedish -iang in triangel. [tʰrɪ.'äŋ.ŋel] "Yang" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
ing/ying [iŋ] Pronounced like Swedish -ing. [ɪŋ] "Ying" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
ong [uŋ] O is pronounced like a Swedish -o in bo, ['bu:] absolutely not as a Swedish å. [ɔ, o:]
iong/yong [yŋ] I+ong = iong. "Yong" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
uang/wang [uɑŋ] U+ang = uang. "Wang" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
ueng/weng [uəŋ U+eng = ueng. "Weng" is used when there is no consonant in the beginning of the syllable.
Are some of these, like -ong, never found without an onset? I'll add consonants later...