Personal names between languages

[Salmoneus]

I use the Irish equivalent of my given name on Irish-language sites. It's such common practice no one bats an eyelash.

Inevitably - if people didn't do that, there'd be no Irish names! Once upon a time, it was the fashion for everyone to do that. [Though: political independence may actually have killed off the language revival?]

Though I must admit i sometimes get a little sirdaniloty when I see some of the wartime politicians making up their own irish names to hide how incredibly english many of them were. Suuure your name is 'Cathal Brugha', you're a real Irishman you. You're certainly not called "Charles St John Burgess" like some sort of Anglo-Irish Protestant... George de Valera from New Jersey, nobody would take him seriously. Eamon de Valera the Irishman, much more of a political future... [That's a weird one, actually... his mother changed his name to 'Edward' when he was thirty!] Irrational, I know, but I can't deny being a little eyebrow-raising about it.

Anyway, I have a bit of a theoretical dilemma when it comes to my name in Irish. I'm torn between the version I first encountered, which was how the name was always translated in the middle ages, and the way that everybody translates it these days. They also have quite different 'feels', and the older version is easier and more pleasant to pronounce... but would probably come across as pretentious or weird (and even if it doesn't, it might feel that way to me).

Fortunately, this is likely to always remain a theoretical problem only, as the chances of my actually learning irish are almost zero (my inability to learn languages, the impossibility/inconceivability of irish phonology, the lack of anyone else to use it with, etc).


[Linguoboy: I thought you were also gay for sex with men?]

[masako]

You are aware that Turkish people are a very large minority in Holland, right...? The same goes for Morrocan Moroccan people.

I grew up in a neighbourhood with a lot of Turkish people. But I am not sure if I can spell their names right. But if your name is Meltem, Hasan, Sefika, Erkan, Özmel, Cihan, Ahmad, Hatice or something like that you definitely have much less odds to get a job in Holland than if you had a typically Dutch name.

There are many examples in the news of people applying for a job with a Turkish name and getting negative response, then sending the exact same letter with a Dutch name and getting a very enthousiast enthusiastic response.

The names I highlighted in green are Turkish versions of Arabic names...Cihan is from Persian, that means only 3/8 of the names you listed originate from Turkish proper. Seems to me like you might be seeing some Anti-Muslim sentiment more than any name pronunciation issue, or some-such.

Also, if you grew up with Moroccans and Turks, at least you think you could spell their respective demonyms correctly.

I know this much; if my name was Erkan I'd shout it from the roof tops and wear in on a name tag everywhere I went (most especially around arrogant racist pricks). That's one nifty sounding name.

[linguoboy]

I use the Irish equivalent of my given name on Irish-language sites. It's such common practice no one bats an eyelash.

Inevitably - if people didn't do that, there'd be no Irish names!

Are you kidding? Without Irish names, how would upper middle class Caucasians in the USA distinguish their daughters?

[Linguoboy: I thought you were also gay for sex with men?]

Right, that too. Okay, two things I'm gay for--oh wait, what about Derby pie? Three things then, three.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

The names I highlighted in green are Turkish versions of Arabic names...Cihan is from Persian, that means only 3/8 of the names you listed originate from Turkish proper. Seems to me like you might be seeing some Anti-Muslim sentiment more than any name pronunciation issue, or some-such.

Also, if you grew up with Moroccans and Turks, at least you think you could spell their respective demonyms correctly.

I know this much; if my name was Erkan I'd shout it from the roof tops and wear in on a name tag everywhere I went (most especially around arrogant racist pricks). That's one nifty sounding name.

Yeah, the issue with all those names is that they are part of certain group of people. I've read about a couple of studies done in France, where people who have a name that isn't part of the common European pool of name (Biblical, Roman, Germanic) had discrimination issues based only on the name.

It is not, however, limited to names with Muslim resonance, though the attitude might change for Chinese and Korean names. Also, in France, I know that having a Japanese name would not give a blip, as people of my age don't think of Japan as something unworthy.

That said, I find the whole issue appalling; it's going to take a lot of time to get rid of that kind of discrimination.

[jal]

Yes it is very different. Als je een grote bek hebt kan je hem terug verwachten (if you have a big mouth you can expect it back).

Though you keep repeating that as if it's some kind of mantra, "big mouthing" people is extremely rude. Big mouthing back is also rude. You are describing Dutch society as if we're all Tokkies, you being the #1 Tokkie of them all.

For example I was at a concert in a church some time ago, and there was a grumpy old lady who was probably having some mental issues. She was shouting at everyone not to sit next to her and to shut up, and she even hit some people with the concert programme leaflet (!!!). So when she decided to hit me (I was touching my face or something and she didn't like it) I simply said rotwijf (rotten woman, stupid woman). That's perfectly acceptable.

Not it's not. It's not even close to being acceptable to say "stupid bitch" to an eldery lady with mental issues. Not even close. It's rude, insensitive, and anti-social. Where did you grow up? Some Zeeuws-Vlaams equivalent of Da Hood???

Or if you are on the bike and someone drives on the left side of the road so you almost have a collision, it is also okay to scold them.

Again, it really isn't. Your morals seem to be rather backwards.

Of course not everyone will agree with me on that one, but in general if people behave negatively I am not going to 'keep up appearances'.

Oh, I believe that you are not going to keep up appearances. You come across as a very nasty piece of shit. But you also claim as if all Dutch people act like that, that it's some part of our culture. Which is ludicrous!


JAL

[jal]

In Holland, we have two kinds of names

That's your narrow minded definition of "Holland". I know many people who have more than just two kind of names, and yes, may even have names they themselves picked. Proposterous, I know.

Because your name is what your parents called you, and changing that is preposterous.

It's your very personal opinion, for whatever reason, that this is "pretentious" or "preposterous" or whatnot. But as Grunnen said, you haven't given a single line of reasoning why you think this is so.

Because your name is what your parents called you, and changing that is preposterous. If you are called 'Maarten', are you going to change that to 'Martin' in England? That's ridiculous. It assumes that people are too stupid to understand that foreign people have foreign names. It assumes people are too stupid to grasp the concept of a foreign name.

For one, it's an age-old tradition of changing one's name to suite the country your living in or traveling to. I think someone already gave the example of Beethoven calling himself Luigi in Italy. Secondly, in the time when Latin was used for anything scholary, everyone publishing something latinized their name. E.g. Kiliaan, my almost-name-sake and compiler of the first dictionary of Dutch, went by Kilianus. And Mikołaj Kopernik went by the more recognizable Nicolaus Copernicus. And even your much beloved Johannes Calvijn was born Jehan Cauvin. So at least history overwhelmingly disagrees with you.

I would always introduce myself with just 'Maarten'. Now if people pronounce it something like 'Martin', of course I wouldn't correct them. But I would not change my own name just because others can't pronounce it.

No, but that's because you seem to be very self-centered.


JAL

[sirdanilot]

You are aware that Turkish people are a very large minority in Holland, right...? The same goes for Morrocan Moroccan people.

I grew up in a neighbourhood with a lot of Turkish people. But I am not sure if I can spell their names right. But if your name is Meltem, Hasan, Sefika, Erkan, Özmel, Cihan, Ahmad, Hatice or something like that you definitely have much less odds to get a job in Holland than if you had a typically Dutch name.

There are many examples in the news of people applying for a job with a Turkish name and getting negative response, then sending the exact same letter with a Dutch name and getting a very enthousiast enthusiastic response.

The names I highlighted in green are Turkish versions of Arabic names...Cihan is from Persian, that means only 3/8 of the names you listed originate from Turkish proper. Seems to me like you might be seeing some Anti-Muslim sentiment more than any name pronunciation issue, or some-such.

Also, if you grew up with Moroccans and Turks, at least you think you could spell their respective demonyms correctly.

I know this much; if my name was Erkan I'd shout it from the roof tops and wear in on a name tag everywhere I went (most especially around arrogant racist pricks). That's one nifty sounding name.

You really don't seem to get the point do you. So I will take your hand and assist you step by step through ths challenging mental process.

1. Morrocans and Turkish people are a sizeable minority in the Netherlands.
2. They are both being discriminated heavily.
3. People who are being discriminated have much less chance to get a job than people who are not being discriminated.
4. Because both Morrocans and Turkish have a sizeable Muslim population, they share many of the names (such as Ahmad).
5. This means that any name which sounds remotely Morrocan, Turkish, Arabic or otherwise related to this region will be a drawback when applying for a job.
6. This is why some people change their name into a Dutch name on job applications so that they at least get invited for an interview.

I hope that you are able to understand this now?

Oh and why would I spell their names? I never need to spell other people's names. These are people I knew from my childhood but I don't interact with them anymore as I moved to another town.

[sirdanilot]

Though you keep repeating that as if it's some kind of mantra, "big mouthing" people is extremely rude. Big mouthing back is also rude. You are describing Dutch society as if we're all Tokkies, you being the #1 Tokkie of them all.

Ah, so this is your problem. You are yourself extremely pretentious. Let me guess, you are only surrounded by white, educated people. You live in a high-end Vinex-wijk. You drive a fat Audi or another fat car. You have only gone to the higher levels of higher education (gymnasium). You have never even interacted with people of the lower class.

And that's why you cannot stand people attacking your imagined tolerant little world. Everyone thinks Dutch people are tolerant, but they aren't. It's a façade, an illusion. Pretending to be tolerant has always been a great way for us to get good bargains in trade, we are a trader's nation. But are we truly so tolerant to people who think differently, to people who are rude, to other religions, to foreigners? No, we aren't. But attacking that is breaking that Dutch façade, and I see with you that it makes you very angry.

Not it's not. It's not even close to being acceptable to say "stupid bitch" to an eldery lady with mental issues. Not even close. It's rude, insensitive, and anti-social. Where did you grow up? Some Zeeuws-Vlaams equivalent of Da Hood???

I come from a normal, non-high-class worker's neighbourhood. I interacted with foreigners (you probably hardly ever did during your childhood), I have experienced criminal activity in my neighbourhood, I have experienced all sorts of crazy people (such as a woman throwing cat litter at passing children. no joke). You, from your sheltered environment, have hardly an idea what the actual world looks like.
You learn to fight back if someone slaps you with a f****ng programme booklet. And I don't mean physically fighting back, I will never use violence unless I am in very direct danger, but first verbally fighting back.
No mental health issue justifies committing physical violence, even if it's as slight as hitting people with a booklet. That's a no-go.

Again, it really isn't. Your morals seem to be rather backwards.

What would you do, happily continue cycling? That's what I'd call being a wimp. You have to stand up for yourself in life, you know.

Oh, I believe that you are not going to keep up appearances. You come across as a very nasty piece of shit. But you also claim as if all Dutch people act like that, that it's some part of our culture. Which is ludicrous!

Again, angry that someone attacks the Dutch façade of 'beng soooo tolerant'.

[jal]

You have to stand up for yourself in life, you know.

Right. Da Hood it is. Explains.


JAL

[sirdanilot]

To be honest, I am actually proud to be of a not-very-high social class financially. I am probably one of the very few people from my original neighbourhood to be in a master's degree in higher education, for example. I am also probably the first of my father's side of the family to achieve this, as they were all farmers (we checked) since time immemorial.

Certainly more proud that if I'd come from a high-class suburban neighbourhood, seeing only white and high-educated kids, absolutely no financial issues.

Although in theory everyone can do higher education in Holland, what I still see with my co-students is that they are almost all from the upper classes. If I have been to the houses of the people's parents, they have almost exclusively been very big houses in rich areas, or at least moderate houses but then in areas which are much more expensive than where I am from (our house was moderately big AND in a very cheap area). I know people whose parents have swimming pools and saunas. Although swimming pools are not so odd in hot countries, to have a swimming pool in Holland is absolutely luxury as you can only use it once in a while.

[sirdanilot]

For example, once I was talking to my dad who was visiting 'yeah and my roommate's parents have a swimming pool in their garden !' and she happened to walk in, so I said 'yeah I was telling my father that you have a swimming pool at home'. She reacted not even a bit surprised 'uh yeah so?'. She probably has not even the slightest idea that having a swimming pool in your garden is absolutely a feat of luxury.

[jal]

You live in Leiden, of course there's a lot of posh people living/studying there. And yes, having a swimming pool is a sign of the upper class (or at least, high income). However, you seem to think there's some kind of either/or choice to be made: either you're from Da Hood ("normal Dutch people"), or you're from the "upper class". You seem to be completely oblivious to the existence of a middle class. The average income of a household in the Netherlands, 2015, is (pre-taxes) almost 60K euro! That's average. Yes, these people tend to live in Vinexwijken (I do), and probably some have an Audi as well (I don't). And yes, these people probably have a higher education, but then again, so has almost 80% our age, and still 60% of the pre-pensionados. If you tend to limit "higher education" to HBO/WO only, that's still 30% on average (source).

Your anti-social behaviour and low morality may very well be explainable by the fact you grew up in a low-income, low-socialeconomic status environment. I can appreciate that. But since you've outgrown that environment, I would expect you to understand that in many parts of the Netherlands, it doesn't work like that. Except you don't, and you don't even seem to grasp the concept of civility, calling it a product of a sheltered, upper-class environment. You're proud of being lower-class, and even proud of behaving like a stereotypical, urban jungle, lower-class thug. I hope for your sake that you grow up, or I'm afraid you'll hit your head hard once you have to live and work amongst "normal" people.


JAL

[sirdanilot]

I am pretty sure that the people you call 'tokkies' far outnumber the people you call 'normal people'. You will be surprised.




-----------
Leiden is an interesting city in that it is divided between what we may call 'tokkies' (low-class, Dutch, low-education) and middle/upper class educated people. The 'tokkies' live in the north and east of the city. The rich live in the west of the city, in the city centre and in the south of the city, as well as rich suburbs such as Oegstgeest and Warmond. A key feature of the 'tokkies' is that they also often speak with a Leiden Dutch accent.

[jal]

I am pretty sure that the people you call 'tokkies' far outnumber the people you call 'normal people'. You will be surprised.

I tried to find some statistics about that, but unfortunately the CBS doesn't categorize people in "tokkies" and "geen tokkies". And honestly, I think you'll be surprised how many "normal" people there are. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure that most people on this board do not share your ideas about the acceptability of giving "een grote bek" to those you think deserve it, and most people on this board have had higher education. So perhaps you should tone down a bit...


JAL

[sirdanilot]

The thing is, if no 'grote bek' (big mouth) is given in the first place then I wouldn't even need to give a 'grote bek' back at them. And the vast majority of the days I don't need to give anyone a 'grote bek' because indeed as you say most people are normal. But if the shit does hit the fan you need to be able to defend yourself, preferably verbally, because violence is a no-no.

It might not sound so but when it comes to physical violence I am an extreme pacifist. I once had the trouble of a drunk person being violent to me and it really took me a lot of effort to stop his violence with force (at first I simply defended, and honestly he wasn't that strong anyway, but he would not stop without being hit himself) and remove him from the premises.

[Grunnen]

Let me guess, you are only surrounded by white, educated people. You live in a high-end Vinex-wijk. You drive a fat Audi or another fat car. You have only gone to the higher levels of higher education (gymnasium). You have never even interacted with people of the lower class.

If you would just stop making so many assumptions. That would go a long way to normalise the situation here.

Yesterday I visited a friend of mine who grew up on the island of Goeree-Overflakee, which though officially part of Zuid-Holland is culturally more aligned with Zeeland. From what I can tell he comes from a background similar to yours Sirdanilot: heaviliy protestant farmers. So I asked him what he thought of people changing their names. He just shrugged and asked me why. After explaining the discussion here, he looked somewhat confused, but he certainly didn't recognise Sirdan's point of view. Which leads me to suspect even more strongly that your point, Sirdan, is an ideosyncratic one. One that you still haven't bother to support with anything like an actual argument.

[Neon Fox]

One that you still haven't bother to support with anything like an actual argument.

He never does, Grunnen. Danny-boy's SOP is "state a naive, insensitive, or bigoted opinion as Holy Writ, wait to be questioned, repeat a few times, then start personally attacking anyone who hasn't given up in disgust yet." It's to the point that I don't read a post if I notice it has his name on it.

And yet I keep getting sucked in. A failing on my part, I guess.

[jal]

The thing is, if no 'grote bek' (big mouth) is given in the first place then I wouldn't even need to give a 'grote bek' back at them.

You don't need to badmouth back, Martin. That's your personal choice.

It might not sound so but when it comes to physical violence I am an extreme pacifist.

That's a choice also. With the same lack of any kind of justification I could as well claim that if someone scolds me, I'm in my perfect right to hook them to the floor. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that your personal choices don't somehow constitute a natural truth that we all should live by.


JAL

[jal]

Danny-boy's SOP is "state a naive, insensitive, or bigoted opinion as Holy Writ, wait to be questioned, repeat a few times, then start personally attacking anyone who hasn't given up in disgust yet."

The funny thing is, he's been a member of this board for ages. Why is he all of a sudden all over us derailing threads and so on? I don't even recall him from more than half a year ago.


JAL

[Grunnen]

One that you still haven't bother to support with anything like an actual argument.

He never does, Grunnen. Danny-boy's SOP is "state a naive, insensitive, or bigoted opinion as Holy Writ, wait to be questioned, repeat a few times, then start personally attacking anyone who hasn't given up in disgust yet." It's to the point that I don't read a post if I notice it has his name on it.

And yet I keep getting sucked in. A failing on my part, I guess.

I know. Somehow I'd hope that by repeating to him again and again he isn't doing anything that should convince anybody, even himself, he'd feel uncomfertable enough about it that it would stick around somewhere in his conciousness. Now he does seem more interested in being controversial than in actually convincing anyone, but I cannot read people's mind. And I also cannot know how these discussions would influence anyone's thinking, even if they came here to do nothing but trolling.

[Nortaneous]

Wait are people actually surprised that translating names is a thing that used to happen?

(Why doesn't it happen anymore? Fall of Latin, or?)

If I moved to a continental European country, I might start going by my middle name: my first name is English and untranslatable, and my middle name is French and has equivalents in most European languages. The only reason I might not is that it could be slightly weird for a foreigner to have a name that makes any sense in the native language because it's not a thing that's done anymore.

[Neon Fox]

Wait are people actually surprised that translating names is a thing that used to happen?

I know a woman in the Society for Creative Anachronism who spells her name any of about five ways because spelling wasn't standardized at the time her persona lived. I don't even know which of AEffrik, Africa, Effric, etc is the "official" registered spelling. :)

[linguoboy]

(Why doesn't it happen anymore? Fall of Latin, or?)

It's a good question, isn't it? The same trend is evident with toponyms. To some extent, you can ascribe that to anti-imperialism; using German forms of place names in the Czech Republic or France has a decidedly different vibe now than it did a century ago. But this doesn't explain, for instance, the desuetude of English exonyms for Germany or Italy. There seems to be an underlying notion that every place has a single correct name, and that is what the locals call (down to pronunciation: consider attempts of non-natives to pronounce "New Orleans" or "Louisville" as close as possible to the perceived local form), parallel to the principle that the correct form of personal address is what the bearer themself wishes to be called. With place names, though, there's an added element of snobbery via implied familiarity. (Though I suppose that's possible with personal names, too, at least when borne by famous people.)

I know a woman in the Society for Creative Anachronism who spells her name any of about five ways because spelling wasn't standardized at the time her persona lived. I don't even know which of AEffrik, Africa, Effric, etc is the "official" registered spelling.

This is not the same phenomenon, though.

[Dewrad]

Danny-boy's SOP is "state a naive, insensitive, or bigoted opinion as Holy Writ, wait to be questioned, repeat a few times, then start personally attacking anyone who hasn't given up in disgust yet."

The funny thing is, he's been a member of this board for ages. Why is he all of a sudden all over us derailing threads and so on? I don't even recall him from more than half a year ago.


JAL

Eddy-shaped hole, I guess?

[linguoboy]

Eddy-shaped hole, I guess?