Personal names between languages

[Yng]

You are aware that Turkish people are a very large minority in Holland, right...? The same goes for Morrocan Moroccan people.

I grew up in a neighbourhood with a lot of Turkish people. But I am not sure if I can spell their names right. But if your name is Meltem, Hasan, Sefika, Erkan, Özmel, Cihan, Ahmad, Hatice or something like that you definitely have much less odds to get a job in Holland than if you had a typically Dutch name.

There are many examples in the news of people applying for a job with a Turkish name and getting negative response, then sending the exact same letter with a Dutch name and getting a very enthousiast enthusiastic response.

The names I highlighted in green are Turkish versions of Arabic names...Cihan is from Persian.

i think Erkan might also be from Arabic إركان 'trust, confidence'

what is sefika supposedly from? شفيقة?

[Neon Fox]

This is not the same phenomenon, though.

No, but I thought it was related.

[linguoboy]

This is not the same phenomenon, though.

No, but I thought it was related.

I suppose they are insofar as contemporary society is extremely intolerant of variation. A century ago, you could still vary the spelling of your personal name and not necessarily suffer much in the way of consequences for it. Nowadays that just doesn't fly, at least in dealing with modern bureaucracies. Willm Shakespeare is simply not the same person as William Shakspere, let alone Guglielmo Shakespeare. (Several weeks ago, I tried to take care of something at the Social Security office, but because the only ID with me listed a slightly different version of my surname than what they had on file, he told me that, officially, he couldn't be certain he was speaking to the same person. Never mind what possible reason there could be for a person who was not me requesting a copy of my social security card. I told him, "This is close enough for the IRS!" but that cut no ice.)

[Salmoneus]

A historical example: Aphra Behn. It's not just that different people spelled her name differently (including herself at different times) - it's that they used versions that don't even sound quite the same. As an English woman, living in England, she definately went by both 'Aphra' and 'Affara', and the best guess at her 'real' name growing up is 'Eaffrey'. People just don't seem to have cared about a syllable here or there or the exact qualities of vowels (likewise her surname is found in forms suggesting a long vowel and forms suggesting a short vowel, even from people who would have known her personally).


Dew/LB/etc re Eddy: my very thought. Well, actually my thought was "arse vacuum".

[Travis B.]

I do not come back to the ZBB much anymore, but I do have to say that, from reading this thread, as much as I disagree with sirdanilot here I sense a certain classism here, as if all Dutch people are supposed to be upper-middle class and the lower and lower-middle classes ought to be looked down upon.

[Grunnen]

I do not come back to the ZBB much anymore, but I do have to say that, from reading this thread, as much as I disagree with sirdanilot here I sense a certain classism here, as if all Dutch people are supposed to be upper-middle class and the lower and lower-middle classes ought to be looked down upon.

I can't remember him saying he's here to represent the lower classes. He has explicitly claimed to speak for all Dutch people, even going so far as to assert that Jal and I in fact agree with him, even though we were arguing against him. See examples below:

And another disclaimer: I am operating in the Dutch cultural paradigma here. A very important Dutch value is: doe normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg (act normally, that's already weird enough). Of course if you are in an Amerindian society where everyone keeps changing their names because of taboo reasons or something, it makes no sense for me to judge them using my own cultural values. But all the people I was talking about are in Holland and are culturally Dutch. And thus they have to adhere to Dutch cultural values, i.e. not being pretentious. And if they fail to do that then they are no longer deserving of polieness.

This after asserting that someone who changes their name is pretentious. So here he clearly claims to speak for all Dutch people, not just those of his social class.

No you don't disagree with it, you simply refuse to admit it because you want to keep a 'tolerant' appearance to outsiders. Newsflash: Dutch people aren't as 'tolerant' as they think they are. Dutch people have opinions on everything and will not accept rude behaviour silently. If you do, you're probably one of those persons who would do nothing if a train staff member is being physically abused right in front of your eyes as has happened quite recently.

I told him I disagree with him, this was his response.

If he were to claim to represent a certain subsection of our society, that would really change this discussion. Who knows, maybe he'd even have a point.

[Boşkoventi]

...
pretentious
...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[jal]

I do not come back to the ZBB much anymore, but I do have to say that, from reading this thread, as much as I disagree with sirdanilot here I sense a certain classism here, as if all Dutch people are supposed to be upper-middle class and the lower and lower-middle classes ought to be looked down upon.

sirdanilot asserts that 1) he comes from a lower class area which 2) causes him to be rude and 3) all Dutch are therefore rude. Now 1 I cannot check so I'll take his word for it, 2 I'm willing to believe but that doesn't excuse his current rude behaviour, especially as it has been pointed out that's not a nice thing to do and he is currently studying in a city that is mostly middle class (so he has encountered a lot of "normal" behaviour), 3 is a weird conclusion that I think he's trying to make, but it could be an independent assertion based on nothing. Beats me. I don't think anywhere we were trying to be classisist, though I'd be interested to know why you think that.


JAL

[linguoboy]

Beats me. I don't think anywhere we were trying to be classisist, though I'd be interested to know why you think that.

This from the man who introduced tokkie into the conversation?

[jal]

This from the man who introduced tokkie into the conversation?

That is a common Dutch word for what in America I think is called "trailer trash", though it's an eponym, popularized by a tv show of said name. I fail to see how it is classist to use that word.


JAL

[linguoboy]

This from the man who introduced tokkie into the conversation?

That is a common Dutch word for what in America I think is called "trailer trash", though it's an eponym, popularized by a tv show of said name. I fail to see how it is classist to use that word.

Now you're just taking the piss. No one is really that clueless, are they?

[Neon Fox]

This from the man who introduced tokkie into the conversation?

That is a common Dutch word for what in America I think is called "trailer trash", though it's an eponym, popularized by a tv show of said name. I fail to see how it is classist to use that word.

It's classist because it directly references class in a derogatory manner. That's pretty much the definition of "classist". I have no opinion on your personal state of classist-ness, but trust me: using a word that's the equivalent of "trailer trash" is going to raise some eyebrows.

[linguoboy]

It's classist because it directly references class in a derogatory manner. That's pretty much the definition of "classist". I have no opinion on your personal state of classist-ness, but trust me: using a word that's the equivalent of "trailer trash" is going to raise some eyebrows.

"Da Hood" definitely raised mine, but I just put it down to general European ignorance of the toxic way class and race intersect in this country.

[Neon Fox]

It's classist because it directly references class in a derogatory manner. That's pretty much the definition of "classist". I have no opinion on your personal state of classist-ness, but trust me: using a word that's the equivalent of "trailer trash" is going to raise some eyebrows.

"Da Hood" definitely raised mine, but I just put it down to general European ignorance of the toxic way class and race intersect in this country.

I confess I'm confused as to how a conversation about whether it's OK to pick your own name involves class in the first place, but I suspect figuring it out would mean reading a lot of Danny-boy's posts and I am just not that interested.

[Viktor77]

This from the man who introduced tokkie into the conversation?

That is a common Dutch word for what in America I think is called "trailer trash", though it's an eponym, popularized by a tv show of said name. I fail to see how it is classist to use that word.

It's classist because it directly references class in a derogatory manner. That's pretty much the definition of "classist". I have no opinion on your personal state of classist-ness, but trust me: using a word that's the equivalent of "trailer trash" is going to raise some eyebrows.

In Jal's defense, the word might reference class, but it might not actually be derogatory. When one says something is classist they are usually referencing some sort of prejudice, but it can also just be a general statement about class meant in a non-derogatory manner. But we don't speak Dutch so we don't know if tokkie is derogatory.

But to Sirlandilot, I want to say that I, too, grew up in a city that was poor and crime-ridden (though I didn't grow up in the thick of it) and I continue to live where crime is higher in my current city because of cost considerations. That is no excuse for hitting people, or calling them names, or whatever. Yesterday there was a crazy lady on our bus, yelling all sorts of things at the bus driver and passengers. No one hit her, no one told her to shut up, we just ignored her. If a younger person in this country called an older woman 'stupid bitch' even if that woman was crazy, that young person would get a mouthful about disrespect. I'd be surprised to learn the Netherlands is just that different from the US.

[linguoboy]

I confess I'm confused as to how a conversation about whether it's OK to pick your own name involves class in the first place, but I suspect figuring it out would mean reading a lot of Danny-boy's posts and I am just not that interested.

From what I can see, sirdanilot's insistence on "doe normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg" as a core principle of Dutch social interaction which precludes doing anything which sets you apart in the least way (such as choosing your own name) kicked off a whole tangential discussion, which then turned into a slanging match between him and jal. (It was over by the time I checked in on it again, otherwise there probably would've been an intervention.)

But I'm not surprised. As people have been discussing in the Random Thread, name choice is much tied to social class. (Which would seem to me to be another argument for giving individuals free hand in choosing their own names, but as a petit-bourgeois university graduate, what would I know about such things?)

In Jal's defense, the word might reference class, but it might not actually be derogatory. When one says something is classist they are usually referencing some sort of prejudice, but we don't speak Dutch so we don't know if tokkie is derogatory.

I wonder, if someone wanted to know the answer, what possible way would there be of finding it out? Oh, right.

tokkie m (plural tokkies, diminutive tokkietje n) (Netherlands, informal, pejorative) A lower-class person who is perceived to be unsophisticated and seen as likely to engage in antisocial behaviour.

[Viktor77]

In Jal's defense, the word might reference class, but it might not actually be derogatory. When one says something is classist they are usually referencing some sort of prejudice, but we don't speak Dutch so we don't know if tokkie is derogatory.

I wonder, if someone wanted to know the answer, what possible way would there be of finding it out? Oh, right.

tokkie m (plural tokkies, diminutive tokkietje n) (Netherlands, informal, pejorative) A lower-class person who is perceived to be unsophisticated and seen as likely to engage in antisocial behaviour.

Yes, well pragmatically it might not be derogatory for Jal here, who knows. Remember I didn't find the word 'gypsy' derogatory until others told me it was. I wasn't wrong, but wherever I learned the word it was never indicated that it was derogatory.

Heck, if I heard someone call a bunch of West Virginians 'hillbillies' I wouldn't find it very derogatory, but I bet if we look up hillbilly it says pejorative.

(often pejorative) Someone who is from the hills; especially from a rural area, with a connotation of a lack of refinement or sophistication.
A white person from the rural southern part of the United States, especially the Southeastern states.

Exactly as I thought, but I'd find it more or less humorous. Whereas trailer trash, redneck, would stick out as actual pejoratives.

My point is this stuff is so nuanced that it often goes beyond what a dictionary says.

[jal]

tokkie m (plural tokkies, diminutive tokkietje n) (Netherlands, informal, pejorative) A lower-class person who is perceived to be unsophisticated and seen as likely to engage in antisocial behaviour.

The "who" and "and" must be seen restrictive, at least that's how I used it. So "tokkie" is not any lower-class person, but a specific type of lower-class person, one who is likely to engage in antisocial behaviour. That's why I used it to compare sirdanilot to, as he detailed his anti-social behaviour (and extended that to the whole of the Netherlands).


JAL

[linguoboy]

tokkie m (plural tokkies, diminutive tokkietje n) (Netherlands, informal, pejorative) A lower-class person who is perceived to be unsophisticated and seen as likely to engage in antisocial behaviour.

The "who" and "and" must be seen restrictive, at least that's how I used it. So "tokkie" is not any lower-class person, but a specific type of lower-class person, one who is likely to engage in antisocial behaviour.

I don't see how that makes it one whit better.

There are words which refer to a person who engages in antisocial behaviour without bringing their class background into it, aren't there? This is like saying that sirdanilot's rotwijf wasn't sexist because, after all, not all women are rotwijven, only some of them.

[jal]

There are words which refer to a person who engages in antisocial behaviour without bringing their class background into it, aren't there?

Well, no, not really. I'm sorry, but now your engaging in the same behaviour as sirdanilot when he claimed that "they" is strictly plural.

This is like saying that sirdanilot's rotwijf wasn't sexist because, after all, not all women are rotwijven, only some of them.

"rotwijf" isn't sexist, no, just as, say, "klootzak" or "eikel" isn't, even though referring to males only (and their genetalia to boot). I suggest we stop this line of discussion, just as we suggested sirdanilot to stop his discussion about "they".


JAL

[din]

For what it's worth, as a Dutchman (from a working-class background), I think 'tokkie' is more about personal behavior and attitude than socio-economic status, but on the other hand, a 'tokkie' couldn't possibly be middle class, so it does have classist undertones. I also think JAL used the word in a derogatory manner towards danilot.

I also agree with danilot that calling people out on their behavior is really quite common in the Netherlands, and that could definitely be described as a typical 'Dutch' character trait. I might not have called church-lady whatever he called her, but I would have definitely said something to call her out on her behavior as well.

I mean, I disagree with a lot of danilot's points, and I hate the way he comments on things as much as the next guy, but some of the reactions he got (especially from masako) weren't much better.

[jal]

I also think JAL used the word in a derogatory manner towards danilot.

I literally said "You are describing Dutch society as if we're all Tokkies, you being the #1 Tokkie of them all." So I wasn't saying he is a tokkie, but that he is describing all Dutch as tokkies, he trumping the class. But yeah, I could see how my remarks could be seen as me calling him a tokkie.

I also agree with danilot that calling people out on their behavior is really quite common in the Netherlands, and that could definitely be described as a typical 'Dutch' character trait.

But is it really? My experience is that people are far more inclined to look away when they see something that's not ok than that they're calling it out. Which is grounded in the famed "tolerance" (which basically means "look away if someone does something you don't agree with"). Or might it be a cultural difference in different parts of the country? Perhaps in Zeeuws Vlaanderen and Limburg (iirc you're from there) people call out behaviour sooner than people more up North?

I mean, I disagree with a lot of danilot's points, and I hate the way he comments on things as much as the next guy, but some of the reactions he got (especially from masako) weren't much better.

Yeah, he brings out the worst in people, I've noticed. I'd vote to have him tempbanned, if such a vote came up.


JAL

[din]

I also agree with danilot that calling people out on their behavior is really quite common in the Netherlands, and that could definitely be described as a typical 'Dutch' character trait.

But is it really? My experience is that people are far more inclined to look away when they see something that's not ok than that they're calling it out. Which is grounded in the famed "tolerance" (which basically means "look away if someone does something you don't agree with"). Or might it be a cultural difference in different parts of the country? Perhaps in Zeeuws Vlaanderen and Limburg (iirc you're from there) people call out behaviour sooner than people more up North?


JAL

If anything, I'd call it Hollands. In my experience, you're a lot more likely to get a comment (whether it is harmless, funny, critical or angry) up north than it is down south.

My husband's American and he speaks Dutch, and he always shares these moments with me because they're so strikingly Dutch to him. I mean, I can't speak for every other culture in the world, but in the Anglosphere it's almost unheard of to have someone say 'your mouth's open!' when you yawn without covering your mouth. I'm not saying it wouldn't raise any eyebrows in the Netherlands, but it is a real-life example and there have been hundreds of others.

The Dutch, in general, just really enjoy butting into other people's conversations and commenting on the things they see.

I do, too.

[Viktor77]

If an old Dutch man saw you on the street, and being a particurialy sour individual, called you a "klootzak", would you be able to respond with a sarcastic "dank je?" Or are you still stuck with a sarcastic "dank u?" I feel like in France at least, and this is not from the mouth of a native speaker, but if there were an old woman trying to preach at you in the metro and you felt the need to respond you'd still have to say "vous etes folle ou quoi!?" It sounds hard to imagine someone saying "t'es folle ou quoi!?" So again, in the Netherlands, and old man is being crazy, do you say "Bent u gek!?" or can you say "Ben jij gek!?"

[richard1631978]

To get things back OT one problem I have with my surname Davies is often it's hard for even English speakers to spell it right (too often it ends up as Davis) or prenounced Dayvees, which someone insisted on.