Personal names between languages

[----]

and it's appropriate to follow your culture.

Why?

[Imralu]

I have said that different cultures have different values regarding names, and it's appropriate to follow your culture. In Western culture changing the name your parents gave you is a slap in the face of your parents.

I don't think you're quite the right person to speak on behalf of Western culture, since none of the Dutch here people agree with you when you make sweeping claims about Dutch culture. OK, Din agreed with you on one point, but not the rest.

In any case, because I don't want to be off topic all the time, I used to be an ESL teacher and most of my Chinese, Taiwanese and Korean students would have an English name. In some cases, this was given to them by an English teacher they had had as a child, but most of the time, they simply thought it up themselves. I found it kind of funny - since I don't see what the problem would be with us simply adapting their names to English phonotactics - but I didn't see it as at all pretentious - I just found it funny that they thought they were making it easier for us, but it actually created twice the number of names that we had to learn as we used their official names (transliterated of course) on all the paperwork. Doing roll call was an act of sight translation. I would look down and see a name like WEI, Yi Ting and then call out "Amanda?" Some of them came up with the weirdest names. I had a girl called Parsley in my class.

There was only ever one student whose name I didn't simply accept. For quite a while, I'd had a Korean girl in my class called Penny. She was a nice girl, lots of fun. She could have gone to the next level up but she wanted to stay with her friends and she was lazy and OK with not being challenged, so she stayed in my class for a very long time. Everyone knew her as Penny. One day, I was writing everyone's names up on the board for an activity and she put up her hand and asked "Who is Penny?" Uh ... you are!? She then said "No, my name is Penny" and you could actually hear the sound of everyone blinking in unison. It turns out, the whole time, she had been trying to pronounce "Fanny" but everyone had heard it as Penny. I just shook my head and said "No. You're Penny. It suits you and we're all used to it." Then I told her what Fanny means in American English, which she was not really OK with ... and then in Australian English, which she was definitely not OK with, and she was happy to keep Penny after that.

But then, the same girl, a few weeks later, watched the film about Coco Channel and then told me to call her Coco from then on. I told her I would call her Coco if she would call me Megatron (or something as ridiculous, I don't remember now) and she just laughed and said "OK, I think Penny is better."

[linguoboy]

Awesome story. That's one of the reasons why I chose a Chinese given name that's easy both to pronounce and to write.

It was watching Hong Kong films that accustomed me to these kinds of dual names--or, rather, reading about the actors in them. They've worked out a really nifty convention for representing them, too, e.g. Stephen Chow Sing-chi, Maggie Cheung Man-yuk. That is, Anglo given name + surname + Chinese given name. The only improvement I might make is adopt a convention I learned from Esperantists and put the surname in all caps, e.g. Maggie CHEUNG Man-yuk. This way, people unfamiliar with the system won't mistake the Chinese given name for another surname or misread the surname as "middle name".

[Pole, the]

I have said that different cultures have different values regarding names, and it's appropriate to follow your culture. In Western culture changing the name your parents gave you is a slap in the face of your parents.

Yes. Because you alone know everything about the Western culture and we all know absolutely nothing…

[gestaltist]

I have said that different cultures have different values regarding names, and it's appropriate to follow your culture. In Western culture changing the name your parents gave you is a slap in the face of your parents.

Yes. Because you alone know everything about the Western culture and we all know absolutely nothing…

Well, du-uh! That has been established looong ago.

To say something on the actual topic for a change... I have spent a lot of my time abroad. My first name is Stefan pronounced [ˈstɛfan] (the Polish version of Steven, basically). I always keep my Polish name except for Germany. I always end up pronouncing my name with [ʃt] instead of [st]. [ʃt] is so pervasive in German that I find it hard to say [st] in the middle of a German sentence.

[Neon Fox]

In my high school French class we were all told to pick "French names" from a list. Some people went for the French pronunciations of their regular names, some went for as different as possible. (I was one of the latter, using Christine, Marie-Noelle, and Genevieve in different years; my given name is Carrie.)

[jal]

To say something on the actual topic for a change... I have spent a lot of my time abroad. My first name is Stefan pronounced [ˈstɛfan] (the Polish version of Steven, basically). I always keep my Polish name except for Germany. I always end up pronouncing my name with [ʃt] instead of [st]. [ʃt] is so pervasive in German that I find it hard to say [st] in the middle of a German sentence.

My given name is Kilian (the Irish version), properly pronounced [kɪliən] in Dutch (i.e. Dutchified English), though many people call me [kiliɑn] (spelling pronunciation), regardless of how many times they hear it pronounced properly. But that aside, what I was getting at, when I'm in a German speaking country I usually introduce myself as [kilian], since that's the German pronunciation of the German name "Kilian", and it's way easier for everybody.


JAL

[Bristel]

Well, I should really be Dustin because my mother chose that name for me, but my grandparents forced her to name me Timothy. So I should really call myself Dustin in order to appease my mother who obviously has rights over what I am called.

(btw I hate the name Dustin, so no, I wouldn't choose that name to call myself anyway)

EDIT for jal's post which came in when I was posting this: That's a really cool name. Is an Irish name rare where you are from?

[linguoboy]

In my high school French class we were all told to pick "French names" from a list. Some people went for the French pronunciations of their regular names, some went for as different as possible. (I was one of the latter, using Christine, Marie-Noelle, and Genevieve in different years; my given name is Carrie.)

I remember a discussion in another international language forum where someone asked, "Is this just us Americans or do the rest of you do it too?" and the response from the non-North American contingent was basically, "This is a thing?"

My sister did this in her high school French class, but it wasn't done in any of my high school or college language classes. Even in Korean class, I was the only non-Korean to pick a Korean name. (The Korean-Americans generally had both a Korean and an Anglo given name, and went by the former within the classroom.) Only years later when I took Chinese at a community organisation did the teacher insist on assigning us all Chinese names for use in class.

[jal]

EDIT for jal's post which came in when I was posting this: That's a really cool name. Is an Irish name rare where you are from?

I'm not sure that I would recognize a name for being Irish, but yeah, "Kilian" at least is pretty rare (though I've seen variants like "Killian" and "Kylian" (the latter is Hungarian I think)). My parents (especially my father) had this thing for Anglo-Saxon-Keltic names. My surname is really Dutch (as is my family at large).


JAL

[kanejam]

In Western culture changing the name your parents gave you is a slap in the face of your parents.

So, now you don't just speak for Dutch culture, it's Western culture now. Please provide some evidence, that all or most of Western culture considers it this way.

Quick! Block your ears! Shift the goalposts! Ready the strawmen!

[linguoboy]

EDIT for jal's post which came in when I was posting this: That's a really cool name. Is an Irish name rare where you are from?

I'm not sure that I would recognize a name for being Irish, but yeah, "Kilian" at least is pretty rare (though I've seen variants like "Killian" and "Kylian" (the latter is Hungarian I think)).

It's somewhat of an old-fashioned name, though, isn't it? (Killian having christianised Franconia 1300 years ago.) What about names like "Kevin" or "Patrick" that seem to be catching on elsewhere on the Continent?

ETA: Just had a look at these charts. "Finn" is in the top-ten in both the Netherlands and Flanders, really?

[jal]

It's somewhat of an old-fashioned name, though, isn't it? (Killian having christianised Franconia 1300 years ago.)

According to the SVB, which is as accurate as it gets since they provide the government's child care allowance ("kinderbijslag"), it was given 7 times in 2014.

What about names like "Kevin" or "Patrick" that seem to be catching on elsewhere on the Continent?

Those sound rather 70s/80s to me ("Patrick" is my second given name btw, "Vincent" the third).

"Finn" is in the top-ten in both the Netherlands and Flanders, really?

Yeah, short names for boys are all the thing. Here's the list for boys for this year so far, here the girls list.


JAL

[linguoboy]

I assume "Thijs" is ultimately derived from "Matthias", but what's the source of "Gijs"?

[jal]

I assume "Thijs" is ultimately derived from "Matthias", but what's the source of "Gijs"?

Gijsbert. Ancient Germanic names ftw! It's an interesting case, as it's a typical 70s name, making a comeback (note: unsubstantiated recollection, I might be wrong; it sounds old fashioned though, and I definitely know a number of Gijses who are now in their 40s).


JAL

[linguoboy]

Gijsbert. Ancient Germanic names ftw! It's an interesting case, as it's a typical 70s name, making a comeback (note: unsubstantiated recollection, I might be wrong; it sounds old fashioned though, and I definitely know a number of Gijses who are now in their 40s).

Wikipedia seems to support this impression. Interesting that it's one I don't recall ever coming across before.

I assume it's cognate with Gilbert (< Common West Germanic Gisilberht/Gisalberht).

[sirdanilot]

To say something on the actual topic for a change... I have spent a lot of my time abroad. My first name is Stefan pronounced [ˈstɛfan] (the Polish version of Steven, basically). I always keep my Polish name except for Germany. I always end up pronouncing my name with [ʃt] instead of [st]. [ʃt] is so pervasive in German that I find it hard to say [st] in the middle of a German sentence.

My given name is Kilian (the Irish version), properly pronounced [kɪliən] in Dutch (i.e. Dutchified English), though many people call me [kiliɑn] (spelling pronunciation), regardless of how many times they hear it pronounced properly. But that aside, what I was getting at, when I'm in a German speaking country I usually introduce myself as [kilian], since that's the German pronunciation of the German name "Kilian", and it's way easier for everybody.


JAL

I would also use the second pronunciation for that and definitely not the english-like one.
Interesting name and haven't encountered it before.

[Pole, the]

It appears like I have something to write on topic.

My first name is Miłosz [ˈmiwɔs̠], it is a Slavic name with no counterparts in Western European languages. My second name is Andrzej [andz̠ɛj], a Polish version of “Andrew”.

I am thinking about going for a student exchange to Hämeenlinna, Finland, this autumn. Then I am going to be called by some name. I could use just my Slavic name, probably just adapted as something like [milos] or [miʋos]. On the other hand, I could use my second name in a version that is already functioning in Finnish, like Andreas or Antero. Or maybe there are even more options.

What do you think?

[sirdanilot]

It appears like I have something to write on topic.

My first name is Miłosz [ˈmiwɔs̠], it is a Slavic name with no counterparts in Western European languages. My second name is Andrzej [andz̠ɛj], a Polish version of “Andrew”.

I am thinking about going for a student exchange to Hämeenlinna, Finland, this autumn. Then I am going to be called by some name. I could use just my Slavic name, probably just adapted as something like [milos] or [miʋos]. On the other hand, I could use my second name in a version that is already functioning in Finnish, like Andreas or Antero. Or maybe there are even more options.

What do you think?

I would say Milos but that's only because I keep having a very hard time parsing the barred l in Polish as a /w/. I just can't wrap my head around that part of the orthography.

I would just say 'miwos' and see how the Fins are going to butcher your name. Isn't that intersting in and of itself, to see how foreign people adapt your name to their phonology?

[Salmoneus]

It appears like I have something to write on topic.

My first name is Miłosz [ˈmiwɔs̠], it is a Slavic name with no counterparts in Western European languages. My second name is Andrzej [andz̠ɛj], a Polish version of “Andrew”.

I am thinking about going for a student exchange to Hämeenlinna, Finland, this autumn. Then I am going to be called by some name. I could use just my Slavic name, probably just adapted as something like [milos] or [miʋos]. On the other hand, I could use my second name in a version that is already functioning in Finnish, like Andreas or Antero. Or maybe there are even more options.

What do you think?

Huh? So you're saying 'Miłosz' ISN'T the counterpart of Western 'Miles'/'Milo' (etc)? Maybe not etymologically, but since nobody cares about the etymology of the Western name I think you could probably get away with it. Don't know what the Finnish equivalent of that is, though.

[Matrix]

Huh? So you're saying 'Miłosz' ISN'T the counterpart of Western 'Miles'/'Milo' (etc)? Maybe not etymologically, but since nobody cares about the etymology of the Western name I think you could probably get away with it. Don't know what the Finnish equivalent of that is, though.

According to Wikipedia: "It is derived from the Slavic root mil-, "merciful" or "dear", which is found in a great number of Slavic given names."

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

I have the given name Malcolm and had thought to change it to the Old Irish name Máel Coluim, since I like the look of it and that it is from which that the name Malcolm is derived. I don't really know how it is pronounced. I could also go for Maol Caluim.

My first name is Miłosz [ˈmiwɔs̠], it is a Slavic name with no counterparts in Western European language.

Huh, I rather like this name and has a euphonic appeal to me. But idunno what is with the macron below the "s", is it retroflex?

[vokzhen]

That's retracted, sometimes used to differentiate between laminal, non-palatalized postalveolars /s̠/ in Slavic and Chinese from the apical postalveolar /ṣ/ and subapical palatal /ʂ/ found in India, all of which are usually just transcribed /ʂ/. But I've also seen /s̠/ used for a retracted, "retroflexed" (generally apico)-alveolar that appears in Basque as ⟨s⟩ versus the lamino-dental ⟨z⟩, premodern/dialectical Spanish /s̠/ ⟨s⟩ versus /ts~θ/ ⟨c z⟩, OHG /s̠/ from *s versus /s/ from *t (roughly modern ⟨sch s⟩ versus ⟨ss ß⟩); afaik given its spread it's generally theorized to either be an old areal feature, the Latin pronunciation of ⟨S⟩, or both. But the retracted (apico-)alveolar can also be transcribed /ṣ/, which is used for apical postalveolar "retroflexes," and retraction is also used for alveolo-palatals /ṉʲ ḏʲ/, demonstrating how clusterfucky transcription is in practice.

[finlay]

EDIT for jal's post which came in when I was posting this: That's a really cool name. Is an Irish name rare where you are from?

I'm not sure that I would recognize a name for being Irish, but yeah, "Kilian" at least is pretty rare (though I've seen variants like "Killian" and "Kylian" (the latter is Hungarian I think)).

It's somewhat of an old-fashioned name, though, isn't it? (Killian having christianised Franconia 1300 years ago.) What about names like "Kevin" or "Patrick" that seem to be catching on elsewhere on the Continent?

ETA: Just had a look at these charts. "Finn" is in the top-ten in both the Netherlands and Flanders, really?

And Germany. Could it be from that TV show, Adventure Time?

It's not exactly the same name, of course, but what with that name and Finlay becoming more popular since I was born (still unusual, just more than there were my age), if I'm in the UK I occasionally hear a mother shouting for her child called Finlay, which weirds me out a little. It's still the kind of name that people in the UK have heard, and probably know like one, maybe two people with the name - it's more common in Scotland, I guess. I knew maybe one or two people in each year of my high school. I've never known anyone who spelt it another way, but still no-one can spell it - they're always asking if it's Findlay or Finley. I think those are more common as surnames or something?

[Grunnen]

It appears like I have something to write on topic.

My first name is Miłosz [ˈmiwɔs̠], it is a Slavic name with no counterparts in Western European languages. My second name is Andrzej [andz̠ɛj], a Polish version of “Andrew”.

I am thinking about going for a student exchange to Hämeenlinna, Finland, this autumn. Then I am going to be called by some name. I could use just my Slavic name, probably just adapted as something like [milos] or [miʋos]. On the other hand, I could use my second name in a version that is already functioning in Finnish, like Andreas or Antero. Or maybe there are even more options.

What do you think?

Myself, I would probably be tempted to go by the Finnish version of my name. But then it may seem strange for a non-Fin to go by a Finnish name. And I do think Sirdan is right when he says it's interesting to see how people adapt your own name when they try to pronounce it. So, for me it would probably depend on how accepted it is in Finland to finnicise (is that a word?) one's name.