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zompist bboard • View topic - Quick question about Japanese pitch accent

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:04 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:39 am 
Sumerul
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the standard accent has an upstep on the second mora and a downstep later in the word, so those are just marking the syllable after which the downstep happens. so [bàáí] etc. especially if it's an old dictionary, it will probably not be using IPA correctly - I've noticed that the way the IPA is used in Japan the ´ accent tends to be used to mark stress in English words, and it's the way all my students preferred to mark stress on English words, and this is probably a manifestation of the same thing - only marking the prominent syllable. Also they called English stress "accent". I'm not convinced that stress and pitch accent are really different things, anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:30 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:03 am 
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No. But maybe half of them had learned it in school so I used to test it out on them to see if they'd know it already. Recently I changed jobs and I don't generally do it in the new one, partly because I type up their notes on the computer and it can't handle IPA or anything beyond simple characters so I use ad hoc respellings instead.

(Also the IPA that we tend to use in English teaching is an abbreviated version of the one that's used in real linguistics and doesn't include any unnecessary symbols)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:03 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:18 am 
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Last edited by Qwynegold on Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:44 pm 
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There are two main patterns: unless the first syllable is accented, in which case it is H followed by all L, syllables between the second and the accented one are all H. There is always an upstep on the second one, unless there's actually a downstep. So in a three syllable word like that, you can have HLL, LHL, or LHH (you cannot have LLH), and you can also have one without an accent, in which case when you add an extra syllable like a particle you would get LHHH instead of LHHL like in the case of baai above.

Anyway except for a few two-syllable minimal pairs (hashi and hashi, or whatever), it's not a very prominent feature of Japanese phonology in my opinion.

(I may be failing to answer your actual question though, sorry)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:29 am 
Smeric
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Ah, I've edited my previous post now to make it more correct and clear. Anyway, the only real question I have is: Can we determine that Wikipedia is right when it's saying that words such as /kaiꜜ/ or /sanꜜ/ may not exist in Tokyo dialect?

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