Creole languages

[jal]

And the Caribbean speaks European languages, not African languages, though the population is mostly of African origin.

I don't want to meddle in the general discussion here, as I'm neither qualified nor much interested, but I am fond of linguistics. Though it is true that a majority of Caribbean people (about 25 million) speak a European language, Spanish, there's a large minority (around 15 million) that speaks a Caribbean creole. Though the lexifiers of these Creoles are European languages (predominently French (Haiti) and English (Jamaica etc.)), I don't think they qualify as a European language, and their grammar is arguably closer to African languages (though they don't qualify as African languages either).


JAL

[zompist]

(of Caribbean creoles)

their grammar is arguably closer to African languages

How so?

[Salmoneus]

And the Caribbean speaks European languages, not African languages, though the population is mostly of African origin.

I don't want to meddle in the general discussion here, as I'm neither qualified nor much interested, but I am fond of linguistics. Though it is true that a majority of Caribbean people (about 25 million) speak a European language, Spanish, there's a large minority (around 15 million) that speaks a Caribbean creole. Though the lexifiers of these Creoles are European languages (predominently French (Haiti) and English (Jamaica etc.)), I don't think they qualify as a European language, and their grammar is arguably closer to African languages (though they don't qualify as African languages either).


JAL

I think that's a little disingenuous. For the most part, AIUI, 'true' Caribbean creoles exist only as the extreme end of a spectrum of registers. A relatively small, and shrinking, proportion of the population will speak true creoles; another relatively small proportion of the population will speak something close to standard European registers; most will speak somewhere between the two, but most will also be able to speak something generally approaching the European standard (while not all will be able to speak something approaching true creole), which they will use as an upper register - even if it's not "perfect" or "the Queen's English" exactly. For instance, there are only two creoles in the region that have gained official status (Papiemento and Haitian Creole - and the latter is only co-official with French), so access to government services, and much media and entertainment, is in the European language. What's more, European languages are the primary lexifers of these creole registers.

Talk to a Jamaican in English, and then in Yoruba, and see which they understand better...

[Nortaneous]

sure, utterances compose of word you at understanding and grammar you at not understanding you easier understand than mi lbqedeqmre ndragephi dzqu zgu kholbji tse lyuzo lbqedeqmre zgu mxe qanzqat grammar. as is demonstrated by the fact that you understood the first part of the sentence, which consists of horrifically mangled english, but the second part of the sentence, which consists of words from a conlang (though i could've used yoruba or whatever and it wouldn't make any difference), is totally impenetrable to you -- except you can guess that it has something to do with grammar, because i couldn't be bothered to coin a word for it

[jal]

'true' Caribbean creoles exist only as the extreme end of a spectrum of registers.

Disclaimer: I'm not a researcher, my information is from what I've read on-line. That said, as far as I know, you may be right with regards to the English creoles, especially Jamaican. However, with regards to Haitian Creole, as Wikipedia writes "Haitian Creole is spoken by about 9.6–12 million people worldwide. Haitian Creole is the first language of 90–95% of Haitians. (...) As of 2008 Haitians were the largest creole-speaking community in the world." Googling a bit, my perceived knowledge of the average Haitian not speaking French seems justified, e.g. here: "The percentage of people who speak French fluently is about 5%, and 100% speak Creole". Note it's not just this one article, everything I've read about Haitian Creole and French in Haiti seems to point at this. So I think you are perhaps partly mistaken when you say that "Caribbean creoles exist only as the extreme end of a spectrum of registers" (which is true for the situation in Jamaica).

A relatively small, and shrinking, proportion of the population will speak true creoles

That depends on your definition of "true creoles". Fully "basilectal" perhaps yes (in Jamaica and other CEC speaking areas, though e.g. in Suriname the situation is different). But I don't see why other, mesolectal, varieties couldn't be called "true creoles".

For instance, there are only two creoles in the region that have gained official status (Papiemento and Haitian Creole - and the latter is only co-official with French)

The former is co-official with Dutch. But this:

so access to government services, and much media and entertainment, is in the European language.

is not true for the former Netherlands Antilles, as access to government services is also in Papiamento. I don't know about Haiti, but given the above, I'd be surprised if the average Haitian couldn't access government services at all due to lack of understanding of or fluency in French.

What's more, European languages are the primary lexifers of these creole registers.

Nobody disputes this.

Talk to a Jamaican in English, and then in Yoruba, and see which they understand better...

I'm not sure what you mean there. Talk to a Jamaican in your average Patois, and I expect you don't understand much more than the Yoruba speaker.

How so?

What I've understood (but my sources may be wrong or I may remember wrong), is that some or most features of the grammar of Caribbean creoles reflect grammatical features found in West African languages.


JAL

[zompist]

How so?

What I've understood (but my sources may be wrong or I may remember wrong), is that some or most features of the grammar of Caribbean creoles reflect grammatical features found in West African languages.

Unless you can find a source, I'd advise being skeptical about that claim. A lot of rather overblown things have been said about creoles. The thing is, Atlantic and Pacific European-based pidgins have a lot of similarities-- and African languages aren't likely to have affected Pacific pidgins. A not-unlikely hypothesis is that most of these creoles date back to Lingua Franca and have been relexified multiple times.

(I say "Atlantic and Pacific" to contrast with Russian-based pidgins, which have some intriguing differences-- e.g. they're genrally SOV.)

[jal]

Unless you can find a source, I'd advise being skeptical about that claim.

I Googled a bit, and it seems that throughout recent history, there have been attempts to show they are, but there is no real compelling evidence so far. E.g. "An Introduction to Pidgins and Creoles" by John Holm has some information about this.

A not-unlikely hypothesis is that most of these creoles date back to Lingua Franca and have been relexified multiple times

I've read that claim in the ALC, iirc, and was intrigued by it. What's the source of that hypothesis? I'd be interested to know how the grammar became so un-European.

For the most part, AIUI, 'true' Caribbean creoles exist only as the extreme end of a spectrum of registers.

I found a quote in "Defining Creole" by John H. McWhorter, that supports what I was saying above:




JAL

[linguoboy]

Though the lexifiers of these Creoles are European languages (predominently French (Haiti) and English (Jamaica etc.)), I don't think they qualify as a European language, and their grammar is arguably closer to African languages (though they don't qualify as African languages either).

Isn't this in large part just a typological artefact? That is, creoles are overwhelmingly analytic and SVO[*]. This is also true of West African languages and of English. (It is not, however, as true of French, which is SOV pronominally and arguably shows evidence of emerging polypersonalism--which might go some way towards explaining the "distinct break" observed by McWhorter--and even less so of Spanish and Portuguese.)

[*] An especially intriguing exception is Mobilian Jargon, which arguably is underlyingly OSV even though none of the contributing languages are.

[sangi39]

I can't speak directly to the topic of register in Jamaica, but through a friend from high school and Facebook I do thankfully have access to the speech of someone in their 80s from Jamaica (that friend's grandfather, born and raised in Jamaica) and for the most part, through conversation with that friend, he seems to be able to half-understand his (now deceased) grandfather. It may have been a register switching issue, and in some instances it seems that his aunts and uncles were translated to some degree, but there's at least a noticeable difference between the Jamaican English his grandfather was raised with and the English my friend was raised with to require register-switching.

Really I should talk to my friend more about it, but considering his grandfather has since passed away, I assume that would be insensitive.

[jal]

Isn't this in large part just a typological artefact? That is, creoles are overwhelmingly analytic and SVO[*]. This is also true of West African languages and of English. (It is not, however, as true of French, which is SOV pronominally and arguably shows evidence of emerging polypersonalism--which might go some way towards explaining the "distinct break" observed by McWhorter--and even less so of Spanish and Portuguese.)

Interesting, as McWhorther's hypothesis is that it is caused by the degree of intermingling between whites and slaves/former slaves, but typology might have smething to do with it (I'm not sure whether Haitian is SVO, but I assume it is). As for Spanish/Portuguese (leaving alone the question why there are no Spanish Caribbean creoles), Papiamentu goes a long way towards being fairly compatible with Spanish/Portuguese. It has the richest morphology of the Caribbean creoles (not counting Haitian, as I have yet to study that language), incorporating Iberianisms like -mente, and it seems to display a tendency of becoming more Spanish-like.

[*] An especially intriguing exception is Mobilian Jargon, which arguably is underlyingly OSV even though none of the contributing languages are.

And the Russian-based creoles you mentioned, which are SOV, despite Russian not being SOV, afaik.


JAL

[Matrix]

IIRC, Russian-based creoles are SOV because Turkic languages are SOV, so Russians just got it in their heads that "foreigners use SOV".

[jal]

IIRC, Russian-based creoles are SOV because Turkic languages are SOV, so Russians just got it in their heads that "foreigners use SOV".

Yeah, that's basically what I read. So even some northern pidgins are SOV, despite the contributing languages being SVO.


JAL

[jmcd]

Regardless of the extent to which European and African languages influenced the languages, I think we can agree that most widely spoken languages in the Carribean are creole languages. The main exceptions being the Spanish-speaking areas, which generally didn't develop into creoles. The other exception is the French DOMs in the region, there being a severe amount of linguistic attrition over there (as far as what I follow from INSEE (French goverment statistics) figures), much greater than here in Réunion.

A lot of rather overblown things have been said about creoles.

One example is one of the most basic claims about creoles languages: It is very often claimed that creoles always have origins in pidgins but I am yet to see any evidence a pidgin for the Indian Ocean region.

I read an article by Michel DeGraff about the origin of creole languages a few years back which I found particularly interesting.

Also, I would distinguish between the various different aspects of a language to see which has most substrate influence and which has most superstrate influence. It is well known that lexicon is largely taken from the superstrate. This is even the case in Ndyukà, which is spoken by what is essentially African villages living in the Amazon. I get the impression that morphology is likewise a mostly superstrate domain. I have read a book dealing with the influence of Malagsy on the syntax of Réunion creole. I have noticed that there are other areas where the substrate makes itself felt, such as discourse structure and semantics. I would also add that I get the impression that the areas where the superstrate and substrate converge are particularly likely to be the areas where the language just goes "You both agree? Well, that's fine by me; I'll roll with that!".

[jal]

I get the impression that morphology is likewise a mostly superstrate domain.

The only information I have about a Creole with extensive morphology, Papiamentu, takes its morphology from superstrate languages (Spanish/Portuguese, Dutch). The CECs don't seem to have much productive morphology, at least not in their basilectal varieties. They're rather isolating.

I would also add that I get the impression that the areas where the superstrate and substrate converge are particularly likely to be the areas where the language just goes "You both agree? Well, that's fine by me; I'll roll with that!".

That seems to be the norm, with the few exceptions already mentioned.

JAL

[jmcd]

Ik wist neet dat u geent wat om Papiamentu. Hoe heebde u dat gelerd?

I had no idea you knew things about Papiamentu. How did you learn it?

[jal]

I had no idea you knew things about Papiamentu. How did you learn it?

I bought this book. I still can't speak it, but that's the source of my knowledge.


JAL