Questions about Welsh

[marconatrix]

The third person alternations between y mae and yr ydyw etc. is not specifically about negation; mae is only used in direct positive statements, other forms are used in questions, negatives, relatives etc. Mae, judging by equivalent forms in Cornish and Breton, seems to have had a locative ('there is') function which got extended more in Welsh than in the other languages, first to the present participle construction, and then even to the copula function, but note the need for yn in both cases. E.g. Mae o yn mynd He's going; Mae hi yn fawr She's big i.e. "in a state of bigness". Contrast a true copula Mawr odi/yw hi! (Wenglish "Big she is!") with no yn.

It's perhaps worth pointing out that this complexity only really exists in the present and imperfect of bod to be and the really complex alternations are restricted to the third person. There are equivalent forms (more or less) in all three Brythonic languages, but the rules for how they're juggled are just sufficiently different to drive you insane

[Yng]

Certainly. But regardless of the broader functions of the various different (certainly dizzying) forms, colloquial Welsh does have negative conchord, which was the original point - it marks the negative both on the verb and with a particle. In fact, various different particles, since there's ddim and also mo and then various negative adverbs and pronouns like erioed and byth and neb which coexist with a negative form of the verb but do not require the presence of ddim. Certainly sometimes the surface forms are the same, but with bod there is a distinct contrast between declarative, interrogative and negative forms, the latter of which is combined with a negative particle.

[marconatrix]

The words which in the spoken language largely take over the signalling of negation were in origin, and still are to some extent, intensifiers. ni ... ddim = 'not (even) a fragment', ni ... eriod 'not ever' and so on. mo and its inflected forms mono fo etc. < ni ... ddim o 'not a bit of ...'.

Where the yd- infix in not used so you get contrasts like rwy vs dwy ddim (< yr wyf fi vs nid wyf fi (ddim) then you're correct that there are two parts to the negative marker d ... ddim, with r- marking a positive statement (absent from a question).

But where the basic forms are ydwyf, ydwyt, ydyw ... then the initial unstressed particles yr and nid are both lost leaving e.g. dwi ~ dwi ddim etc. where the d- is fixed and not actually related to the negative at all.

Dwi'n meddwl ... ???

[Jonlang]

Can anyone explain why the phrase I love you translates as Rwy'n dy garu di rather than Dw i'n caru ti?

The Welsh Rwy'n dy garu di is one of those stock phrases that most Welsh people know and know that it means "I love you", probably because there is at least one song children learn at school where the phrase is repeated a lot. But it seems to literally translate as "I am/do your love"* rather than Dw i'n caru ti (not sure if there should be mutations in there) which would be more "I am/do in [the act of] [to] love you". Or have I got it wrong?

* According to a Google search result where someone on a Welsh-learners' forum said that rwy'n and dw i are pretty much interchangeable in the spoken language.

[linguoboy]

Can anyone explain why the phrase I love you translates as Rwy'n dy garu di rather than Dw i'n caru ti?

Because caru is a noun and not a verb. In Welsh linguistics, it's generally called a "verb-noun" because it has characteristics of both. But its origin are strictly nominal.

Cf. English "I have had it up to here with his always coming late to work." Nowadays him is as common as his in these contexts, but that's a relatively recent development.

[Jonlang]

Can anyone explain why the phrase I love you translates as Rwy'n dy garu di rather than Dw i'n caru ti?

Because caru is a noun and not a verb. In Welsh linguistics, it's generally called a "verb-noun" because it has characteristics of both. But its origin are strictly nominal.

Cf. English "I have had it up to here with his always coming late to work." Nowadays him is as common as his in these contexts, but that's a relatively recent development.

I understand the VN thing, but there doesn't seem to be any way of telling if a word is a N or VN. Like the earlier examples chwarae is a VN, which means it needs yn to give it present tense context. So caru isn't a VN and cannot be used as one? Google translates Dw i'n caru ti as I love you but then again I don't put too much trust in Google Translate. Saying "I am your love" seems like a bizarre way to convey "I love you" to me, even "you are my love" would seem to make more sense in that respect. However tonight I begin Welsh classes so I'll have plenty of questions to bombard the tutor with.

[linguoboy]

I understand the VN thing, but there doesn't seem to be any way of telling if a word is a N or VN.

Sure there is: syntax. The same way any two parts of speech are distinguished. Can it be used in constructions which only allow verb-nouns? Then it's a verb-noun. Same way you tell nouns from adjectives in English, or any other language.

Like the earlier examples chwarae is a VN, which means it needs yn to give it present tense context. So caru isn't a VN and cannot be used as one?

I don't understand how you've reached this conclusion. Yn is present in those examples with caru, it's simply abbreviated to 'n.

Moreover, it's entirely possible for the same word to function as either depending on the context. Chwarae is a perfect example; as an ordinary noun, it means "game" and takes the plural chwaraeon. (Verb-nouns don't have plural forms.)

Google translates Dw i'n caru ti as I love you but then again I don't put too much trust in Google Translate.

Google Translate is optimised to produce some plausible rendering of sentences into another language. It doesn't pass judgment on whether these sentences are actually grammatical in their language of origin or not. (For instance, if you input "yo ti ama" and input Spanish>English, it renders this as "I love you". But the correct Spanish would be yo te amo. It just does the best it can with whatever garbage you feed it.)

Saying "I am your love" seems like a bizarre way to convey "I love you" to me, even "you are my love" would seem to make more sense in that respect. However tonight I begin Welsh classes so I'll have plenty of questions to bombard the tutor with.

"I am your love" would be "Rwy'n dy gariad". Cariad (pl. cariadau or cariadon) is an ordinary noun derived from the same root as caru.

Trying to find a literal equivalent in your own language for every word in a foreign one is a bad habit to get into, but does it help at all to equate caru to loving rather than love?

Welsh isn't "[s]aying "I am your love"...to convey "I love you"". You are. Welsh says Rwy'n/Dw i'n dy garu and you're remaking this into something it isn't.

[Jonlang]

I understand the VN thing, but there doesn't seem to be any way of telling if a word is a N or VN.

Sure there is: syntax. The same way any two parts of speech are distinguished. Can it be used in constructions which only allow verb-nouns? Then it's a verb-noun. Same way you tell nouns from adjectives in English, or any other language.

Like the earlier examples chwarae is a VN, which means it needs yn to give it present tense context. So caru isn't a VN and cannot be used as one?

I don't understand how you've reached this conclusion. Yn is present in those examples with caru, it's simply abbreviated to 'n.

Moreover, it's entirely possible for the same word to function as either depending on the context. Chwarae is a perfect example; as an ordinary noun, it means "game" and takes the plural chwaraeon. (Verb-nouns don't have plural forms.)

Google translates Dw i'n caru ti as I love you but then again I don't put too much trust in Google Translate.

Google Translate is optimised to produce some plausible rendering of sentences into another language. It doesn't pass judgment on whether these sentences are actually grammatical in their language of origin or not. (For instance, if you input "yo ti ama" and input Spanish>English, it renders this as "I love you". But the correct Spanish would be yo te amo. It just does the best it can with whatever garbage you feed it.)

Saying "I am your love" seems like a bizarre way to convey "I love you" to me, even "you are my love" would seem to make more sense in that respect. However tonight I begin Welsh classes so I'll have plenty of questions to bombard the tutor with.

"I am your love" would be "Rwy'n dy gariad". Cariad (pl. cariadau or cariadon) is an ordinary noun derived from the same root as caru.

Trying to find a literal equivalent in your own language for every word in a foreign one is a bad habit to get into, but does it help at all to equate caru to loving rather than love?

Welsh isn't "[s]aying "I am your love"...to convey "I love you"". You are. Welsh says Rwy'n/Dw i'n dy garu and you're remaking this into something it isn't.

I'm not trying to map Welsh onto English, but it's difficult not to sometimes when English is the only language I speak fluently. And up until now my understanding of Welsh sentences was to say "Dw i" (I am) + yn + VN and this would mean "I am/do something". Today I read over the dy section of King's book which translates it as "your" dy + N + Pronoun repeated = "your something". So this is why I am confused as to how dw i'n dy garu di means "I love you".

[linguoboy]

I'm not trying to map Welsh onto English, but it's difficult not to sometimes when English is the only language I speak fluently. And up until now my understanding of Welsh sentences was to say "Dw i" (I am) + yn + VN and this would mean "I am/do something".

"Dw i" (I am) + yn + VN does not mean "I am something". You're confusing this construction with "Dw i" (I am) + yn + [soft mutation] + N/ADJ. Compare:

Rwy'n byw. "I live/I am living".
Rwy'n fyw. "I am alive/I am lively."
Rwy'n fywyd. "I am life."

Today I read over the dy section of King's book which translates it as "your" dy + N + Pronoun repeated = "your something". So this is why I am confused as to how dw i'n dy garu di means "I love you".

That's the meaning of this construction when applied to ordinary nouns. When applied to verb-nouns in a periphrastic construction, the meaning is different. Namely, it expresses the direct object of a transitive verb. There are historical reasons for the parallel construction (stemming from the fact that verb-nouns were once entirely nominal in nature), but they're not really important for grasping how this construction is used in contemporary Welsh.

[Richard W]

If you want a literal translation, try "I'm at your loving", and note that 'your' functions as an objective genitive. There's something odd about English (or possibly the scenario); you wouldn't have any problem grasping "I was at his killing", but for some reason 'English' seems to call for "I'm at the loving of you".

[Jonlang]

Today I read over the dy section of King's book which translates it as "your" dy + N + Pronoun repeated = "your something". So this is why I am confused as to how dw i'n dy garu di means "I love you".

That's the meaning of this construction when applied to ordinary nouns. When applied to verb-nouns in a periphrastic construction, the meaning is different. Namely, it expresses the direct object of a transitive verb. There are historical reasons for the parallel construction (stemming from the fact that verb-nouns were once entirely nominal in nature), but they're not really important for grasping how this construction is used in contemporary Welsh.

If you want a literal translation, try "I'm at your loving", and note that 'your' functions as an objective genitive. There's something odd about English (or possibly the scenario); you wouldn't have any problem grasping "I was at his killing", but for some reason 'English' seems to call for "I'm at the loving of you".

Thanks guys, very helpful. It probably doesn't help that I'm going about this in a very non-linear fashion, as you may have guessed.

[Jonlang]

This question is to both help me with my Welsh studies and my conlang:

I know that there are certain adjectives which come before the noun, some are easily remembered, like hen, as it occurs frequently in place names (e.g. Hen Golwyn / Old Colwyn in North Wales). King's book lists some and some I've found via the BBC Learn Welsh PDFs, but they both state that their lists aren't complete:

hen old
ambell ocasional
pob every, each
prif main, chief
holl all
cyn- ex-, former
uwch senior, superior
dirprwy deputy
is- sub-, vice

But is there anywhere I can find a list of them? Or could anyone add some to the list?

[Yng]

I think people have explained the verbnoun thing pretty well. You will probably have heard dw i'n caru ti or whatever they teach you down in the decadent south as """your""" dialectal variant (as if there are only two dialects, THE NORTH and THE SOUTH), which is also acceptable. But the older and 'more correct' construction treats the object of a verbnoun as its possessor. If you think about it, this makes total sense:

chwarae ffytbol - playing football

has the same structure as

ffytbol Sion - Sion's football

Right? It's a possessed noun then a possessor. In Irish this is clearer because there is a distinct case used for possessors (the genitive) which is used on all nouns, but in Welsh we can only see this unambiguously with a pronoun where there are independent possessive pronominal forms. Nowadays, perhaps under English influence, the use of the possessives in this construction is perhaps dying out and being replaced by a simple dw i'n chwarae fo (for example). But the following are all correct and you may see all of them:

rydw i'n ei chwarae
rydw i'n ei chwarae fe
rydw i'n chwarae fe

Likewise

rwy'n dy garu
rwy'n dy garu di
rwy'n caru ti

Rwy is not used in the North, but maybe it's a real colloquial form in the South.

Your list of adjectives that goes before the noun seems spot on, although some of them are not adjectives but prefixes (is- is used to calque English sub-, for example). Hen, pob, holl and ambell are the only ones that I would say are adjectives. There may be a list in Gareth King's book somewhere, but there are hardly any of them that I can think of. Hen when it is modified goes after the noun anyway: y dyn rhy hen 'the too-old man'.

[Jonlang]

I think people have explained the verbnoun thing pretty well. You will probably have heard dw i'n caru ti or whatever they teach you down in the decadent south as """your""" dialectal variant (as if there are only two dialects, THE NORTH and THE SOUTH), which is also acceptable. But the older and 'more correct' construction treats the object of a verbnoun as its possessor. If you think about it, this makes total sense:

chwarae ffytbol - playing football

has the same structure as

ffytbol Sion - Sion's football

I have never heard of football being called ffytbol... I've only ever heard (and seen) it as pêl-droed

Your list of adjectives that goes before the noun seems spot on, although some of them are not adjectives but prefixes (is- is used to calque English sub-, for example). Hen, pob, holl and ambell are the only ones that I would say are adjectives. There may be a list in Gareth King's book somewhere, but there are hardly any of them that I can think of. Hen when it is modified goes after the noun anyway: y dyn rhy hen 'the too-old man'.

The list I posted was from King's book, but he just says that they are the most commonly used, not that it's a complete list so I just wondered if there were any more and where I could find them.

[Yng]

Pel-droed is the Welsh 'native' calque taught in schools and used in the news. People do use it, but they also use ffytbol.

[linguoboy]

The list I posted was from King's book, but he just says that they are the most commonly used, not that it's a complete list so I just wondered if there were any more and where I could find them.

Thorne's grammar claims to be "comprehensive" (cynhwysfawr). Here's his list:

hen
prif
gwir
unig
gau
cam
cryn

He lists "pronominalia" (i.e. determiners) separately:

y naill
rhyw (and its derivatives amryw, cyfryw, unrhyw)
holl
ychydig
ambell
aml

In notes, he also lists pob, llawer, nemor, uchelion (plural of uchel), dirgelion (plural of dirgel), cyfrinion (plural of cyfrin), priod, and union.

(Note that several of these forms are quite literary and that the meaning of some adjectives varies by whether it precedes or follows, as in French.)

He also mentions that any adjective may precede the noun it modifies as a literary device, e.g. daw arall ddydd ac arall ddwylo (Rhiannon Davies Jones).

[Jonlang]

Today I read over the dy section of King's book which translates it as "your" dy + N + Pronoun repeated = "your something". So this is why I am confused as to how dw i'n dy garu di means "I love you".

That's the meaning of this construction when applied to ordinary nouns. When applied to verb-nouns in a periphrastic construction, the meaning is different. Namely, it expresses the direct object of a transitive verb. There are historical reasons for the parallel construction (stemming from the fact that verb-nouns were once entirely nominal in nature), but they're not really important for grasping how this construction is used in contemporary Welsh.

Is this covered in King's book? I had a quick look just now but can't find it, but I don't really know what I'm looking for

[Yng]

what is it you don't understand

'I am in his playing' means 'I am playing it [masc]', 'I am in his loving' means 'I love him'

The direct objects of verbnouns are treated as their possessors

[linguoboy]

Is this covered in King's book? I had a quick look just now but can't find it, but I don't really know what I'm looking for

It's all covered in the section on possessive adjectives (pp. 80-83). In fact, the last part of this section (114) is named "POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVES AS PRONOUN OBJECTS OF VNs". ("VN" here is an abbreviation of "verb-noun".)

[Jonlang]

Is this covered in King's book? I had a quick look just now but can't find it, but I don't really know what I'm looking for

It's all covered in the section on possessive adjectives (pp. 80-83). In fact, the last part of this section (114) is named "POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVES AS PRONOUN OBJECTS OF VNs". ("VN" here is an abbreviation of "verb-noun".)

Sections 109-114? I'll give them a read when I get a moment. Section 109 falls on page 93 in my copy, but I have the third edition.

[Jonlang]

So I'm into my second week of Welsh classes. The second lesson got people to ask for addresses, phone numbers etc. One of the things were we learning was to say "I live near to/by....". The only word I was already familiar with for "by" was wrth, mostly down to a teacher I had when I was about eight or nine, who'd shout "wrth y drws!" at a naughty kid (naughty kids had to go and stand my a marked point by the door). Our tutor favours the phrase yn ymyl in the phrase dw i'n byw yn Y Rhyl yn ymyl swyddfar'r post for I live in Rhyl by the post office, for example.

The course material states there are no fewer than three ways to say it:

wrth
yn ymyl
ger all being translated as by or near to.

My Welsh dictionary states that ger is used for geographical location, i.e. Bangor ger Aberystwyth. That yn ymyl translates as nearby and that wrth is used for by or at as in there's someone at the door or he's stood by the table.

The tutor said that she prefers yn ymyl as I said above, but did say that yn ymyl, wrth and ger can be used interchangeably - I'm loathed to argue with her but that's not how the dictionary tells it. The dictionary definitions would suggest that using wrth geographically would be wrong, but maybe ger and yn ymyl could be used. Could anyone offer their opinions?

EDIT: Also we're being taught lle for where but I'm assuming that ble and lle are interchangeable and are just regional variants. Am I right?

[Yng]

Yes. ble is a southern variant (from ba (pa) le) and lle is a northern variant. I've rarely heard anyone from the north use ble.

With regard to the choice of words, I agree with your tutor. Ger actually feels quite a strange word to me and I'm not really used to hearing it. Wrth can definitely be used in your sentence and is probably what I would use here.

yn ymyl can be used as 'nearby', but it also can be used as a preposition.

[Jonlang]

Can anyone help me in translating the word berwyn? Googling has thrown up some baby name sites which I don't trust as I've seen many completely bullshit etymologies of names on some of these sites before. One site suggests that the name comes from the Welsh elements gwyn white and barr head, now I know pen to be head so unless barr is an older word not used in modern Welsh then I can only assume that this explanation is wrong. I can't find barr in either of my Welsh-English dictionaries.

[linguoboy]

I can't find barr in either of my Welsh-English dictionaries.

Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the University of Wales Dictionary) is available free online. It not only lists bar [sic] but also gives Berwyn as an example of its use.

[Jonlang]

I can't find barr in either of my Welsh-English dictionaries.

Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the University of Wales Dictionary) is available free online. It not only lists bar [sic] but also gives Berwyn as an example of its use.

Thanks!