Questions about Welsh

[Jonlang]

Well, they're all kinds of lenition - weakening of sounds. That's why it 'runs off the tongue' easier. But I would never use the aspirate mutation after tri.

The reason they exist where they do is largely etymological - historical processes of lenition (soft, aspirate and mixed mutations) and assimilation (nasal mutation) of different kinds in different environments. The results of these sound changes are also visible within words - the same sound change which produced the soft mutation (postvocalic lenition after final vowels which were later lost) also produced e.g. gwyrdd from Latin viridium.

'Mae siwt yn costio pedwar deg tri phunt' is wrong, anyway. You need to say Mae'r siwt yn costio pedwar deg tri phunt.

Yeah, I forgot the 'r but I didn't on Duolingo! Why wouldn't you use the AM after tri?

[Yng]

It's archaic. I wouldn't use the AM anywhere except potentially after a.

[linguoboy]

Do you ever substitute SM or is it always AM or nothing?

[Znex]

I know that un causes SM in feminine nouns, dau/dwy causes SM, tri and chwe(ch) cause AM, but I have no idea why. Are the mutations triggered by the phonetics or something else? I mean "tri phunt" rolls off the tongue easier than "tri punt" and "dwy gath" is a little easier than "dwy cath" but that could just be because I'm used to it being that way.

This mostly has to do with the original endings of each of the numerals. About the time of Pre-Proto-Brittonic, all words acquired a strong stress on the penultimate syllable, which in turn caused the ultimate syllable to drop off, but not before a system of consonant lenition and mutation was established. eg. The (now lost) feminine ending -ā is what causes soft mutation after feminine nouns.

Some of these consonant mutations in turn have reduced, particularly for example the aspirate mutation (to the point of not being used much at all in speech) in Welsh. Cornish and Breton on the other hand have mutations that weren't kept or even produced in Welsh diachronically, such as the hard mutation (*b d g -> /p t k/) and a mixed mutation.

It's archaic. I wouldn't use the AM anywhere except potentially after a.

To add to that, Gareth Jones' writings on consonant mutations say that the aspirate mutation if anything tends to occur more with /k/ nowadays, much less with /p t/.

[Yng]

To add to that, Gareth Jones' writings on consonant mutations say that the aspirate mutation if anything tends to occur more with /k/ nowadays, much less with /p t/.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Do you ever substitute SM or is it always AM or nothing?

Actually, one other place it does appear quite consistently in some dialects is after ei 'her'. Though I just wouldn't mutate at all.

I don't think there's any AM context where anyone substitutes soft mutation, except the (semi-AM) context of 'mixed mutation' where soft mutation has displaced it (e.g. ni chefais > ges i ddim).

[Znex]

What's the phonetic distinction nowadays between voiced and unvoiced stops, particularly in Northern Welsh dialects?

Wikipedia says it's turned more into an aspiration distinction, but it doesn't actually specify how exactly. A Southern Welsh speaker I met online a bit ago said aspirated unvoiced stops are likely more a thing in Northern dialects. But a paper I found a while ago was investigating the degree to which unvoiced stops are pronounced with preaspiration by some Northern speakers. How common is preaspiration? Or are voiceless stops typically pronounced differently?

[Yng]

Did the Southern speaker definitely know you meant aspiration and not words with the aspirate mutation? They're not necessarily wrong - southern Welsh dialects basically have the same phoneme inventory and very similar phonologies to Welsh English, whilst northwestern dialects are where most of the really foreign-sounding stuff happens. But to me it just sounds like voiced vs unvoiced, v similar to English. I suspect what Wikipedia means is that Welsh phonation, like English's, is a mixture of voicing and aspiration.

The guy here has a very northwestern accent if you can tell what's going on from that.

[Znex]

Did the Southern speaker definitely know you meant aspiration and not words with the aspirate mutation?

Well the context specifically when I think of it again was of final devoicing, which he said wasn't common in Southern Welsh. I should have said generally aspirated unvoiced stops.

[Jonlang]

So I've just discovered that there are alternative words for two words I had no idea had alternative forms. Diwrnod and adeg, I had no idea that there were different words for day and time.

So what's the difference between dydd and diwrnod; amser and adeg? I could take a stab in the dark and say that amser is the literal time, like wyth o'r gloch and that adeg is abstract time, like "Do you have time to spare?", "I don't have time to go" etc, but I dunno.

[linguoboy]

So what's the difference between dydd and diwrnod; amser and adeg? I could take a stab in the dark and say that amser is the literal time, like wyth o'r gloch and that adeg is abstract time, like "Do you have time to spare?", "I don't have time to go" etc, but I dunno.

Gareth King actually has a whole section on Welsh equivalents of English "time".

The difference between diwrnod and dydd is that the former is always 24-hour period while the latter can mean just the hours of daylight (i.e. "day" in contrast to "night"). For many usages, this means they're still interchangeable, but for instance "broad daylight" is cefn dydd golau not *cefn diwrnod golau and for most speakers a "long day" is a diwrnod hir.

[Yng]

Yes. I find it quite difficult to explain, but for example y dydd ola sounds wrong to me (even though it's the name of a book) and I want to say y diwrnod ola instead.

It's kind of similar to journée vs jour I think?

[Jonlang]

The difference between diwrnod and dydd is that the former is always 24-hour period while the latter can mean just the hours of daylight (i.e. "day" in contrast to "night").

Then you'd kinda expect the names of the days to begin with diwrnod and not dydd, seeing as they refer to a specific 24 hour period.

[linguoboy]

The difference between diwrnod and dydd is that the former is always 24-hour period while the latter can mean just the hours of daylight (i.e. "day" in contrast to "night").

Then you'd kinda expect the names of the days to begin with diwrnod and not dydd, seeing as they refer to a specific 24 hour period.

I'm pretty sure the names of the days of the week were borrowed from Latin before the distinction existed.

[Jonlang]

The difference between diwrnod and dydd is that the former is always 24-hour period while the latter can mean just the hours of daylight (i.e. "day" in contrast to "night").

Then you'd kinda expect the names of the days to begin with diwrnod and not dydd, seeing as they refer to a specific 24 hour period.

I'm pretty sure the names of the days of the week were borrowed from Latin before the distinction existed.

Yeah I guessed as much.

I also thought recently that it's a bit odd that the Welsh for "week" is "wythnos" "eight nights". Why on Earth wasn't it "saithnos"!?

[Astraios]

I also thought recently that it's a bit odd that the Welsh for "week" is "wythnos" "eight nights". Why on Earth wasn't it "saithnos"!?

Because there are eight periods of darkness in a normal week, starting with the AM half-night of its first day, and ending with the PM half-night of its seventh, with seven whole nights in between, thus eight ‘Welsh nights’?

Mon 00:00 - Mon sunrise (0.5 nights, but 1 dark period)
Mon sunset - Tue sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Tue sunset - Wed sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Wed sunset - Thu sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Thu sunset - Fri sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Fri sunset - Sat sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Sat sunset - Sun sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Sun sunset - Sun 23:59 (0.5 nights, but 1 dark period)

[Jonlang]

I also thought recently that it's a bit odd that the Welsh for "week" is "wythnos" "eight nights". Why on Earth wasn't it "saithnos"!?

Because there are eight periods of darkness in a normal week, starting with the AM half-night of its first day, and ending with the PM half-night of its seventh, with seven whole nights in between, thus eight ‘Welsh nights’?

Mon 00:00 - Mon sunrise (0.5 nights, but 1 dark period)
Mon sunset - Tue sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Tue sunset - Wed sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Wed sunset - Thu sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Thu sunset - Fri sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Fri sunset - Sat sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Sat sunset - Sun sunrise (1 night/dark period)
Sun sunset - Sun 23:59 (0.5 nights, but 1 dark period)

I'm starting to feel that my ancestors were a bit twp

[hwhatting]

It was also usual in Germany to say in acht Tagen "in eight days" for "a week from now", because they counted the current day plus the seven following days. Or compare "The third day he rose again from the dead" in the credo, where the count is Friday (day of the crucifixion) - Saturday - Sunday (day of the resurrection), where by our modern count we'd probaly say that Jesus was resurrected two days after the crucifixion.

[Vijay]

My brother once shared a folk etymology for the French word aujourd'hui 'today' with me: au jour de huit 'on the day of eight'.

[Pole, the]

The difference between diwrnod and dydd is that the former is always 24-hour period while the latter can mean just the hours of daylight (i.e. "day" in contrast to "night").

Then you'd kinda expect the names of the days to begin with diwrnod and not dydd, seeing as they refer to a specific 24 hour period.

But dydd can be used in both meanings, so this makes sense, right?

[Vijay]

Besides, "day" is at least that ambiguous in English, but we use that for the days of the week in English, too.

[Jonlang]

Besides, "day" is at least that ambiguous in English, but we use that for the days of the week in English, too.

Yeah but English only has the one word - day, where Welsh has dydd and diwrnod, and I expect I'll run into problems knowing where to use the latter, because I've only ever known dydd till now.

[Jonlang]

This isn't really a question about Welsh, but this thread is probably the best place to ask it.

In South Wales, particularly the valleys and Cardiff (not sure about about South West) there is an extremely common word which features as a closing to many sentences in Wenglish: mun. It is used as a kind of exclaimation - often of surprise, annoyance, glee etc: Shut up mun!

Does anyone have any idea where this word comes from? Is it from some older Welsh word? Is it just a Welsh-accented "man!"?

[Dewrad]

It's just "man".

[Jonlang]

Ddoe, es i i Landudno efo fy nghariad i. Cerddon ni ar y pier a bwyton ni bysgodyn a sglodion ar gopa Pen y Gogarth. Chwaraeon ni golff gwirion (?) ac wedyn aethon ni adref.
Yesterday, I went to Llandudno with my girlfriend. We walked on the pier and ate fish & chips on the top of the Great Orme. We played crazy golf and then went home.

What's wrong with golff gwirion?

[Znex]

Looking it up quickly, looks like it's just simply called golff mini or golff gwyllt. (Or golff byr if pitch and putt. I don't know what the difference is between putt putt game styles though.)