Questions about Welsh
Re: Questions about Welsh
To be honest I just read my post and I can't remember what I was getting at either. I really am burning the candle at both ends and all I can say is that it must've made sense in my head at the time. I've had about 5 hours of sleep since Saturday and it's clearly doing me no good. I think I'll come back to it once I've caught up on sleep!
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
What's the difference between the agent suffixes -wr (gwerthwr) and -ydd (arlunydd)?
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
Not much that I can see. Nowadays -ydd seems more productive. (Of your two examples, gwerthwr has been attested since about 1400 whereas arlunydd is barely a century-and-a-half old.)dyolf wrote:What's the difference between the agent suffixes -wr (gwerthwr) and -ydd (arlunydd)?
Re: Questions about Welsh
So you'd say that -wr seems to be more people performing a function whereas -ydd is more people who actually make, produce and create things?linguoboy wrote:Not much that I can see. Nowadays -ydd seems more productive. (Of your two examples, gwerthwr has been attested since about 1400 whereas arlunydd is barely a century-and-a-half old.)dyolf wrote:What's the difference between the agent suffixes -wr (gwerthwr) and -ydd (arlunydd)?
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
No, a productive suffix is one that can be used freely to form new words, as opposed to an unproductive suffix which can’t. In English -er is a productive agent suffix, because you can add it freely to any verb you want (killer, dancer, walker, eater, seer, …), while -ant is an unproductive agent suffix, because it only exists in a few words (mendicant, supplicant) and you can’t use it freely (i.e., you can’t say *killant, danceant, walkant, eatant, seeant, …). linguoboy is saying that in Welsh -ydd seems more productive (more freely used with any verb) than -wr.
Re: Questions about Welsh
Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up!Astraios wrote:No, a productive suffix is one that can be used freely to form new words, as opposed to an unproductive suffix which can’t. In English -er is a productive agent suffix, because you can add it freely to any verb you want (killer, dancer, walker, eater, seer, …), while -ant is an unproductive agent suffix, because it only exists in a few words (mendicant, supplicant) and you can’t use it freely (i.e., you can’t say *killant, danceant, walkant, eatant, seeant, …). linguoboy is saying that in Welsh -ydd seems more productive (more freely used with any verb) than -wr.
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
Good catch. The response had me completely flummoxed.Astraios wrote:No, a productive suffix is one that can be used freely to form new words, as opposed to an unproductive suffix which can’t. In English -er is a productive agent suffix, because you can add it freely to any verb you want (killer, dancer, walker, eater, seer, …), while -ant is an unproductive agent suffix, because it only exists in a few words (mendicant, supplicant) and you can’t use it freely (i.e., you can’t say *killant, danceant, walkant, eatant, seeant, …). linguoboy is saying that in Welsh -ydd seems more productive (more freely used with any verb) than -wr.
(Not just verbs, btw. E.g. llyfrgell "library" > llyfrgellydd "librarian", without a corresponding verb *llyfrgellio or whatever.)
Re: Questions about Welsh
Does anyone know why Gareth King refers to fy, dy, eich, ein, ei and eu as possessive adjectives instead of possessive pronouns? I mean they correspond to the English pronouns my, your, their, our, his and her
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
What makes you say those are "pronouns" rather than "adjectives"?dyolf wrote:Does anyone know why Gareth King refers to fy, dy, eich, ein, ei and eu as possessive adjectives instead of possessive pronouns? I mean they correspond to the English pronouns my, your, their, our, his and her
Re: Questions about Welsh
'Possessive adjectives' is also sometimes used to refer to the English set. It's a matter of analysis.
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية
tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!
short texts in Cuhbi
Risha Cuhbi grammar
tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!
short texts in Cuhbi
Risha Cuhbi grammar
Re: Questions about Welsh
Probably because I'm an idiot. But someone on Facebook pointed out that they're adjectives and the pronouns are mine, ours, theirs etc.linguoboy wrote:What makes you say those are "pronouns" rather than "adjectives"?dyolf wrote:Does anyone know why Gareth King refers to fy, dy, eich, ein, ei and eu as possessive adjectives instead of possessive pronouns? I mean they correspond to the English pronouns my, your, their, our, his and her
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
As Yng says, it's a matter of analysis. You can analyse them as pronouns representing nouns in the possessive case (e.g. "Yng's" > "his"), as adjectives, or even as determiners. None of these is actually "wrong" as long as you're consistent in your analysis.dyolf wrote:Probably because I'm an idiot. But someone on Facebook pointed out that they're adjectives and the pronouns are mine, ours, theirs etc.
(Incidentally, I'm not convinced that mine, ours, etc. are always pronouns. Compare: "It's more mine than ours" with "It's more green than blue".)
Re: Questions about Welsh
The creator of the Welsh Duolingo course said:
Richard Morse wrote:Except that Welsh doesn't have possessive pronouns that meet this definition. Eg to say This car is mine, we have to use an emphatic sentence 'Fi sy biau'r bêl hon' = It's me who owns this ball. So it makes more sense to refer to 'fy.....i' as a possessive pronoun as compared to 'i' as the ordinary pronoun.
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
It's because in English terminology the meaning of “pronoun” is narrower than in the traditional linguistics, so for example “my”, “which”, “this” are usually considered adjectives or determiners and not adjectival pronouns.dyolf wrote:Does anyone know why Gareth King refers to fy, dy, eich, ein, ei and eu as possessive adjectives instead of possessive pronouns? I mean they correspond to the English pronouns my, your, their, our, his and her
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Questions about Welsh
The GCC also says you can express mine in a sense by having a "dummy" object for fy...i to wrap around.dyolf wrote:The creator of the Welsh Duolingo course said:
Richard Morse wrote:Except that Welsh doesn't have possessive pronouns that meet this definition. Eg to say This car is mine, we have to use an emphatic sentence 'Fi sy biau'r bêl hon' = It's me who owns this ball. So it makes more sense to refer to 'fy.....i' as a possessive pronoun as compared to 'i' as the ordinary pronoun.
eg. Mae'i ardd o'n fwy na'n un i. "His garden's bigger than mine/my one."
Roedd ei farciau o'n well na'n rhai i. "His marks were better than mine/my ones."
Native: English || Pretty decent: Ancient Greek || Alright: Ancient Hebrew || Eh: Welsh || Basic: Mandarin Chinese || Very basic: French, Latin, Nisuese, Apsish
Conlangs: Nisuese, Apsish, Kaptaran, Pseudo-Ligurian
Conlangs: Nisuese, Apsish, Kaptaran, Pseudo-Ligurian
Re: Questions about Welsh
That structure can be used with nouns too though: "It's more dog than cat."linguoboy wrote:(Incidentally, I'm not convinced that mine, ours, etc. are always pronouns. Compare: "It's more mine than ours" with "It's more green than blue".)
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC
________
MY MUSIC
Re: Questions about Welsh
Yes, though that's pretty colloquial.Znex wrote:The GCC also says you can express mine in a sense by having a "dummy" object for fy...i to wrap around.dyolf wrote:The creator of the Welsh Duolingo course said:
Richard Morse wrote:Except that Welsh doesn't have possessive pronouns that meet this definition. Eg to say This car is mine, we have to use an emphatic sentence 'Fi sy biau'r bêl hon' = It's me who owns this ball. So it makes more sense to refer to 'fy.....i' as a possessive pronoun as compared to 'i' as the ordinary pronoun.
eg. Mae'i ardd o'n fwy na'n un i. "His garden's bigger than mine/my one."
Roedd ei farciau o'n well na'n rhai i. "His marks were better than mine/my ones."
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية
tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!
short texts in Cuhbi
Risha Cuhbi grammar
tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!
short texts in Cuhbi
Risha Cuhbi grammar
Re: Questions about Welsh
Is Lloegr one syllable or two? I was startled to see the final consonant marked as syllabic, which doesn't accord with what I've heard.
Re: Questions about Welsh
Two syllables - something like (I am not very good at phonetics) [KoEgEr].
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية
tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!
short texts in Cuhbi
Risha Cuhbi grammar
tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!
short texts in Cuhbi
Risha Cuhbi grammar
Re: Questions about Welsh
Going off Wiki, it's basically something like ['ɬɔɨ̯.gɨr~'ɬɔɨ̯.gr̩].
Native: English || Pretty decent: Ancient Greek || Alright: Ancient Hebrew || Eh: Welsh || Basic: Mandarin Chinese || Very basic: French, Latin, Nisuese, Apsish
Conlangs: Nisuese, Apsish, Kaptaran, Pseudo-Ligurian
Conlangs: Nisuese, Apsish, Kaptaran, Pseudo-Ligurian
Re: Questions about Welsh
I think it would be more like:Znex wrote:Going off Wiki, it's basically something like ['ɬɔɨ̯.gɨr~'ɬɔɨ̯.gr̩].
['ɬɔɨ̯.gər] in the North, and
['ɬɔi̯.gər] in the South.
Although there are more than two dialects, apparently five discernible ones. The vowel sound between /g/ and /r/ doesn't really seem to matter but moving from /g/ to /r/ without a vowel seems pretty impossible.
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.
Re: Questions about Welsh
In much of the South, <oe> is pronounced [oː].dyolf wrote:I think it would be more like:
['ɬɔɨ̯.gər] in the North, and
['ɬɔi̯.gər] in the South.
I'm inclined to believe what Yng reports about his own speech.
It's perfectly possible. Syllabic rhotics are a thing--just ask the Czechs.dyolf wrote:The vowel sound between /g/ and /r/ doesn't really seem to matter but moving from /g/ to /r/ without a vowel seems pretty impossible.
Re: Questions about Welsh
Moreover, doing it as just one syllable is also perfectly possible - compare the French pronunciations at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ma%C3%AEtre. The French Canadian one is quite pertinent. (The modern French entry at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maitre then adds confusion by giving a bisyllabic transcription.)linguoboy wrote:It's perfectly possible. Syllabic rhotics are a thing--just ask the Czechs.dyolf wrote:The vowel sound between /g/ and /r/ doesn't really seem to matter but moving from /g/ to /r/ without a vowel seems pretty impossible.
Re: Questions about Welsh
Thanks, I've got some unlearning to do. For example, I'd learnt llyfr 'book' as [ɬɨvr] (one syllable), whereas it's something like [ɬəvr̩] (two syllables). Another problem with the notion that Welsh spelling specifies the pronunciation.Yng wrote:Two syllables - something like (I am not very good at phonetics) [KoEgEr].
Re: Questions about Welsh
Really, syllabification (with its implications for vowel quality) has been my only real trouble with pronouncing Welsh. There are so few exceptions to the basic rules I was taught that I can't even remember them right now.Richard W wrote:Another problem with the notion that Welsh spelling specifies the pronunciation.