Latin to Sardinian sound changes

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Chengjiang
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Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Chengjiang »

Hi again! Been a while, hasn't it?

I'm in the early stages of making a Latin-descended conlang that starts diverging at Classical rather than Vulgar Latin, and while I know Sardinian is a Romance language, it's a considerably divergent one and I would like to look at its development from Latin. Does anyone know of any good resources on the sound changes connecting Late/Vulgar Latin to Sardinian? Or on the evolution of Sardinian in general, for that matter?
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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by mèþru »

The Wikipedia page on Sardinian contains a lit bit on sound changes. The resources and external links may contain more information.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Chengjiang »

In particular, I'm interested in information on the origins of palatoalveolar consonants in Sardinian, since it doesn't share the Romance palatalization of velars.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.

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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Travis B. »

Chengjiang wrote:In particular, I'm interested in information on the origins of palatoalveolar consonants in Sardinian, since it doesn't share the Romance palatalization of velars.
Off the top of my head (I may be wrong), Sardinian still has palatalization of coronals (e.g. t > ts in, say, nātiō in the case of western Romance).
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Chengjiang »

Travis B. wrote:
Chengjiang wrote:In particular, I'm interested in information on the origins of palatoalveolar consonants in Sardinian, since it doesn't share the Romance palatalization of velars.
Off the top of my head (I may be wrong), Sardinian still has palatalization of coronals (e.g. t > ts in, say, nātiō in the case of western Romance).
It does, generating [ts dz] from Latin [t d] in palatalizing environments IIRC. I'm not clear on the origins of Sardinian [tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ], though.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.

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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Salmoneus »

Well for one thing, there's no such thing as 'Sardinian' - there are three different Sardinian languages, at least, with different histories. I think it's only Nuorese that doesn't have palatalisation at all. Logudorese proper doesn't palatalised velars before front vowels, but it does palatalise them before /j/. However, the outcome of that is just /t:/, so that doesn't really help you much. Campidanese does palatalise velars before front vowel. Additionally, Logudorese produces /dZ/ from Latin /kl/ clusters, but I don't think the others do. And Nuorese sometimes gets /S/ from /s/: apparently Latin 'deorsum' > N. /joS:o/ - is that the effect of the rs cluster perhaps?
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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by mèþru »

Campidanese is the most widely spoken, followed by Logudorese and Nuorese. There seems to be a debate about whether Nuorese is a subdialect of Logudorese or not. There is a Standard Sardinian, which is apparently based on both Campidanese and Logudorese. Nuorese is the most conservative. All of this is from Wikipedia, not actual understanding of the language.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Salmoneus »

mèþru wrote:Campidanese is the most widely spoken, followed by Logudorese and Nuorese. There seems to be a debate about whether Nuorese is a subdialect of Logudorese or not. There is a Standard Sardinian, which is apparently based on both Campidanese and Logudorese. Nuorese is the most conservative. All of this is from Wikipedia, not actual understanding of the language.
...yes, those things are all true. Your point being?
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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by mèþru »

I thought that it would be helpful for Chengjiang if they wanted to choose one of the dialects as the basis of the romlang.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Chengjiang »

mèþru wrote:I thought that it would be helpful for Chengjiang if they wanted to choose one of the dialects as the basis of the romlang.
FWIW it's not actually going to be based on any of these. I wanted information on these languages partly just because I was curious and partly because I wanted to look at cases where certain sounds generated from different sources than they did in most of the rest of Romance. When I actually make the conlang I'm going to apply sound changes to early Classical or possibly even late Old Latin.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.

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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Chengjiang »

If people are wondering about my conlang project: I'm designing a Latin descendant or quasi-descendant with creole-like characteristics including heavy inflectional simplification, an almost entirely new derivational system, and a massively heterogeneous vocabulary. (Maybe 40% of the lexicon will actually be Latin-derived, with the remainder from such diverse sources as Greek, Arabic, Ancient Egyptian, and Sanskrit.) It's designed for a conculture in my boyfriend's writing that lives in enclaves around much of the world connected by teleportation magic. It now has a thread here.

I'm interested in the sound change history of Sardinian dialects in part because while I'm probably going to not have palatalization of velars or a Romance-like development of Latin's vowel system, I'm still strongly considering deriving palato-alveolar and/or palatal consonants from something in the native vocabulary to make it more likely that they would be retained and not converted to something else in vocabulary from languages that have them.

Relatedly, could anyone recommend any good descriptions of Sardinian dialects, or at least of how they differ phonologically? Descriptions in English would be great, obviously, but I'm willing to muddle through descriptions in other languages.
Last edited by Chengjiang on Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.

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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Pogostick Man »

On the CBB, qwed117 compiled a list of relevant sound changes. The Index Diachronica (and I think the Correspondence Library thread too) has some information on dialectal differences.
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Re: Latin to Sardinian sound changes

Post by Chengjiang »

Pogostick Man wrote:On the CBB, qwed117 compiled a list of relevant sound changes. The Index Diachronica (and I think the Correspondence Library thread too) has some information on dialectal differences.
Thank you so much! And thanks to qwed117 too!
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.

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