zompist bboard

I understand the history of the letter Y from Phoenician waw up through Latin uses of Y. And while I don't know all the details of Y's history in the languages of Northern and Eastern Europe, they make sense to me. (Analogical use of Y for /y/ in various languages based on ypsilon representing /y/ for a period in the history of Greek makes sense, and Y for /ɨ/ and other central vowels is a pretty reasonable use of the letter for languages that either have or used to have six vowel qualities.)

However, I don't understand where most uses of Y in Western European languages, most of all English, French, and Spanish come from, other than etymological uses in Greek-derived words. There are multiple usages whose origin I don't get:

• Chief among them, Y for /j/ (or Spanish /ʝ/). Where did using Y for this sound originate? I mean, I sort of get needing a new way to represent /j/ since the consonantal use of Latin I had shifted to representing a palato-alveolar sound or something similar in most languages in this area, but why this way?
• Next, we have Y for /i/ and related vowels at the ends of words. French, English, and Spanish all seem to replace what would otherwise be an I with Y word-finally for some reason, as wonderfully demonstrated by, say, day versus daily.
• And then there seems to be a rule that if an I would occur between two other vowel letters for any reason, it becomes Y. Granted, I'm pretty sure the answer to this question is related to the first one.

Things I'm not confused about and do not need explained:

• Y for former Þ in English, e.g. ye for the.
• Faux-etymological or otherwise analogical uses of Y in place of I in non-Greek-derived words, e.g. sylvan.

Consonantal ⟨y⟩ in English comes from the Middle English ⟨ȝ⟩, which represented /j ɡ x/, which came from the Old English form of ⟨g⟩, which in Old English represented /j ɡ~ɣ/. Note that vocalic ⟨y⟩ in English as /ɪ iː aɪ/ comes from the merger of orthographic ⟨i⟩ and ⟨y⟩ in Middle English, so that they effectively were orthographically in free variation, with the phonetic merger of Old English /ʏ yː/ with /ɪ iː/; this free variation later settled out into more fixed forms as English orthography became more standardized, resulting in alternations like day versus daily.

I think the situation is like this: due to the unrounding of Greek /y/ in Vulgar Latin words, the letter "y" came to represent /i/ in most Romance languages. So now there are two letters for this one sound. In older materials, you can see more widespread interchange (spellings like "loy" or "mayn" for "loi" and "main" in French, "wyf" instead of "wife" in English, etc.) But gradually, people develop tendencies for differentiating their use. "Y" is basically used, like "j," as a more prominent variant of "i" used at the start and end of words and between vowels. (In older Spanish writing, and in the modern case of the conjunction "y," Y was used for word-initial /i/ as well as /ʝ/). It doesn't really seem any odder to me than using "w" for /w/.

(Modern French actually doesn't normally use "y" word-finally; only initially and intervocalically.)

Sumelic wrote:(Modern French actually doesn't normally use "y" word-finally; only initially and intervocalically.)

Sorry, I realized belatedly that most of the examples I was thinking of in French were actually proper nouns. I am of course aware of word-final I in verb forms and the like.

Welsh has y in its alphabet as a vowel. It is pronounced [ɨ] in penultimate and final syllables and [ə] everywhere else.

Sglod wrote:Welsh has y in its alphabet as a vowel. It is pronounced [ɨ] in penultimate and final syllables and [ə] everywhere else.

Has “I am Welsh” become this forum's equivalent of “I am vegan”?

Y for /ɨ/ and other central vowels is a pretty reasonable use of the letter for languages that either have or used to have six vowel qualities

I don't see what the problem is here.
It is quite clearly coming from /y/ > /i/ > /i j/
There is a reason why romance languages tend to call the letter "Greek I".

Sglod wrote:Welsh has y in its alphabet as a vowel. It is pronounced [ɨ] in penultimate and final syllables and [ə] everywhere else.

It's also iː finally like in ysbyty or gwely.

dyolf wrote:

Sglod wrote:Welsh has y in its alphabet as a vowel. It is pronounced [ɨ] in penultimate and final syllables and [ə] everywhere else.

It's also iː finally like in ysbyty or gwely.

Only in the south.

Sglod wrote:

dyolf wrote:

Sglod wrote:Welsh has y in its alphabet as a vowel. It is pronounced [ɨ] in penultimate and final syllables and [ə] everywhere else.

It's also iː finally like in ysbyty or gwely.

Only in the south.

I'm currently having Welsh lessons in the North and our tutor is emphasising the final iː . Not sure why if it's a Southern thing.