Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlearn

[Qxentio]

I'm on a short skiing holiday in Austria, and I had to go to a location called "Fronebenalm". So I asked where "fro-neben-alm" was and was met with huge question marks on the person's face. Then I showed the written word, and they said "ah, fron-eben". I mean really, how hard could it be to understand what I was saying???

I could tell you if you would provide me with phonetic transcriptions.

[Salmoneus]

I'm on a short skiing holiday in Austria, and I had to go to a location called "Fronebenalm". So I asked where "fro-neben-alm" was and was met with huge question marks on the person's face. Then I showed the written word, and they said "ah, fron-eben". I mean really, how hard could it be to understand what I was saying???

It's amazing how just a slight alteration of a proper name can throw you off completely. The other day I hired a cabbie to take me to a friend's place. Confirming the route he said, "And then I'll take Austin." And I was like, "No, it's just off Halsted! Austin is too far west." "That's what I said, Austin!" I think he may have been vocalising the /l/, and that alone was enough for me to reinterpret the entire word.

That sounds plausible. I've also noticed I often have difficulty distinguishing word-final non-syllabic /n/ from /d/.

[jal]

I could tell you if you would provide me with phonetic transcriptions.

The only relevant alteration is the "n" being either the coda of the first syllable or the onset of the second: [fʁo.nebn̩] vs. [fʁon.ebn̩].


JAL

[linguoboy]

I could tell you if you would provide me with phonetic transcriptions.

The only relevant alteration is the "n" being either the coda of the first syllable or the onset of the second: [fʁo.nebn̩] vs. [fʁon.ebn̩].

Why aren't you transcribing length?

I think stress and prosody are particularly important in proper names. This alone is enough for me to misinterpret them at times. (Think of the difference between Daniel and Danielle for instance.)

[jal]

Why aren't you transcribing length?

Forgot. But like I said, the only difference was the location of the syllable break.


JAL

[Pole, the]

Are you sure it wasn't [fronʔebn], with an initial glottal, or something similar?

[jal]

Are you sure it wasn't [fronʔebn], with an initial glottal, or something similar?

Ok guys, I should've used // instead of [], and I'm not very good at transcribing German, so yeah, there probably should've been a glottal stop, and the lack of it in /fro.neben/ might've triggered the misunderstanding. But still...


JAL

[Ryusenshi]

As a non-native speaker, I had a lot of them. For instance, I initially read "curse" with the CURE vowel. I also read "garage" as ["gæreɪd͡ʒ]. Actually, I still find the American pronunciation of this word weird.

[Zaarin]

As a non-native speaker, I had a lot of them. For instance, I initially read "curse" with the CURE vowel. I also read "garage" as ["gæreɪd͡ʒ]. Actually, I still find the American pronunciation of this word weird.

The American pronunciation is a lot closer to the original French pronunciation. I just heard the English pronunciation [ˈgæɹəʤ] for the first time the other day, and had the context not been blatantly obvious I have to admit I would probably have been completely baffled as to what was being referred to. :p

[linguoboy]

This is reminding me that I used to pronounce garish with [ɑ].

[Salmoneus]

As a non-native speaker, I had a lot of them. For instance, I initially read "curse" with the CURE vowel. I also read "garage" as ["gæreɪd͡ʒ]. Actually, I still find the American pronunciation of this word weird.

The American pronunciation is a lot closer to the original French pronunciation. I just heard the English pronunciation [ˈgæɹəʤ] for the first time the other day, and had the context not been blatantly obvious I have to admit I would probably have been completely baffled as to what was being referred to. :p

Never heard that pronunciation, with the schwa! Usually around here you hear either /"g{rIdZ/ or /"g{rAZ/ (or /"g{rAdZ/).

[Salmoneus]

This is reminding me that I used to pronounce garish with [ɑ].

Whereas I used to pronounce it with /æ/. (maybe by analogy to "lavish"?)

[Sumelic]

This is reminding me that I used to pronounce garish with [ɑ].

Whereas I used to pronounce it with /æ/. (maybe by analogy to "lavish"?)

The OED does record /ˈɡarɪʃ/ (in second place to /ˈɡɛːrɪʃ/). The long vowel pronunciation does seem more regular, since as far as I know it's only the French-derived verb suffix "-ish" that regularly shortens a preceding vowel, not the Germanic adjective suffix "-ish" (hence "polish" vs. "Polish"), but there are exceptions such as "Spanish."

[Ryusenshi]

I also read "garage" as ["gæreɪd͡ʒ]. Actually, I still find the American pronunciation of this word weird.

The American pronunciation is a lot closer to the original French pronunciation.

To my French ears, not really. OK, it's closer, but not really close.

First, because of the English-language stress. French words are supposed to be stressed on the last syllable, but we French speakers don't really realize that, and in English class, stress seems to us like a completely alien concept. So, by using a strong English stress on the last syllable of garage, it fails to sound anywhere close to the way a French speaker would say it. And it sounds unnatural in English, because you wouldn't expect the stress to be on the second syllable if it were a regular English word.

Second, there's the matter of /ɑː/ versus /æ/. Americans tend to reflexively use their PALM vowel in foreign words written with an A. But French actually has a contrast between /a/ and /ɑ/ (even if it's declining). The /a/ sound I would use in garage is somewhat fronted, and closer to an American TRAP than a PALM (except if the speaker has the NCVS).

In fact, /gəˈrɑːʒ/ makes me think of... a stereotypical upper-class Parisian accent. That's because this accent tends to:
- over-emphasize the last syllable of each sentence,
- use the /ɑ/ vowel a lot, even in words that usually have /a/.
Congratulations to Americans: you've managed to sound posher than most French people!

You have to remember that an awful lot of English words seem, to us, like French words with weird pronunciation. We see age, face, vague and we think that they're the same as in French, only with /eɪ/ instead of /a/. We see type, rite, silence and we see that they're the same as in French, only with /aɪ/ instead of /i/. With luck, maybe we learn about vowel reduction and realize that message is /ˈmɛsɪʤ/ and not */mɛseɪʤ/.

And then come massage or garage. Here, instead of using our familiar French-to-English pronunciation rules, we have to use a weird quasi-French-but-not-really pronunciation that, as I've mentioned, sounds weirdly posh. Yes, they're "French words", but so are message, rite, age, face etc.

[Zaarin]

As a non-native speaker, I had a lot of them. For instance, I initially read "curse" with the CURE vowel. I also read "garage" as ["gæreɪd͡ʒ]. Actually, I still find the American pronunciation of this word weird.

The American pronunciation is a lot closer to the original French pronunciation. I just heard the English pronunciation [ˈgæɹəʤ] for the first time the other day, and had the context not been blatantly obvious I have to admit I would probably have been completely baffled as to what was being referred to. :p

Never heard that pronunciation, with the schwa! Usually around here you hear either /"g{rIdZ/ or /"g{rAZ/ (or /"g{rAdZ/).

It could have been /ɪ/--I don't strongly distinguish between /ɪ~ə/ in unstressed syllables so it would be hard for me to say.

@Ryusenshi: That's...actually really interesting.

[Sumelic]

I also read "garage" as ["gæreɪd͡ʒ]. Actually, I still find the American pronunciation of this word weird.

The American pronunciation is a lot closer to the original French pronunciation.

To my French ears, not really. OK, it's closer, but not really close.

First, because of the English-language stress. French words are supposed to be stressed on the last syllable, but we French speakers don't really realize that, and in English class, stress seems to us like a completely alien concept. So, by using a strong English stress on the last syllable of garage, it fails to sound anywhere close to the way a French speaker would say it. And it sounds unnatural in English, because you wouldn't expect the stress to be on the second syllable if it were a regular English word.

Second, there's the matter of /ɑː/ versus /æ/. Americans tend to reflexively use their PALM vowel in foreign words written with an A. But French actually has a contrast between /a/ and /ɑ/ (even if it's declining). The /a/ sound I would use in garage is somewhat fronted, and closer to an American TRAP than a PALM (except if the speaker has the NCVS).

In fact, /gəˈrɑːʒ/ makes me think of... a stereotypical upper-class Parisian accent. That's because this accent tends to:
- over-emphasize the last syllable of each sentence,
- use the /ɑ/ vowel a lot, even in words that usually have /a/.
Congratulations to Americans: you've managed to sound posher than most French people!

You have to remember that an awful lot of English words seem, to us, like French words with weird pronunciation. We see age, face, vague and we think that they're the same as in French, only with /eɪ/ instead of /a/. We see type, rite, silence and we see that they're the same as in French, only with /aɪ/ instead of /i/. With luck, maybe we learn about vowel reduction and realize that message is /ˈmɛsɪʤ/ and not */mɛseɪʤ/.

And then come massage or garage. Here, instead of using our familiar French-to-English pronunciation rules, we have to use a weird quasi-French-but-not-really pronunciation that, as I've mentioned, sounds weirdly posh. Yes, they're "French words", but so are message, rite, age, face etc.

Interesting. The stereotype that I think I remember about Parisian speakers is that they pronounce word-final e muets in situations where other speakers would not. So "garage" would come out as "garageuh." Is my impression accurate? Maybe I'm misremembering and this is only supposed to apply to words ending with /r/.

[linguoboy]

Congratulations to Americans: you've managed to sound posher than most French people!

WINNING

[Pole, the]

Congratulations to Americans: you've managed to sound posher than most French people!

WINNING

Congratulations to Americans: you've managed to … err … adapt the sounds of another language to the phonology of your language, huh? Not exactly an unusual feat.

(Also, why does sounding posh in *French* have to have anything to do with the pronunciation in a dialect of *English*? These are, pardon my French, two fucking separate languages.)

[Ryusenshi]

Interesting. The stereotype that I think I remember about Parisian speakers is that they pronounce word-final e muets in situations where other speakers would not. So "garage" would come out as "garageuh." Is my impression accurate? Maybe I'm misremembering and this is only supposed to apply to words ending with /r/.

I have to mention that the "posh Parisian" accent I was talking about is quite different from other Parisian accents: think upper-crust RP (as opposed to Estuary), or Locust-Valley Lockjaw (as opposed to Brooklynese). Besides, the most extreme form of posh Parisian is basically extinct outside of parody.

As for word-final "e muets"... I'm not sure what you're talking about. People occasionally pronounce word-final "e muets" when putting extreme emphasis on a word, or to express exasperation. Picture a child complaining "Je veux pas aller dans ma chambreeeeuuuh !" ("I don't wanna go to my rooooomm!!"). Apart from that, Parisian speakers don't pronounce "e muets" more than others.

Pronouncing almost every "e muet" is a characteristic feature of Southern French accents.

I should do a primer on French accents one of these days.

(Also, why does sounding posh in *French* have to have anything to do with the pronunciation in a dialect of *English*? These are, pardon my French, two fucking separate languages.)

I know. It's just that, by complete coincidence, the American pronunciation of garage happens to resemble a posh French one.

Besides, that's only my own personal impression. And I don't find the English pronunciation of machine or police particularly weird.

[StrangerCoug]

I think stress and prosody are particularly important in proper names. This alone is enough for me to misinterpret them at times. (Think of the difference between Daniel and Danielle for instance.)

Ditto. Stressing the wrong syllable in a person's name has led me to have difficulty understanding what was meant more than once.

[Zaarin]

I should do a primer on French accents one of these days.

Please do. I'd find it interesting. From my middling knowledge of Standard French from school, I'm always startled by Southern French accents that trill their Rs.

[linguoboy]

I think stress and prosody are particularly important in proper names. This alone is enough for me to misinterpret them at times. (Think of the difference between Daniel and Danielle for instance.)

Ditto. Stressing the wrong syllable in a person's name has led me to have difficulty understanding what was meant more than once.

Just yesterday I had a clerk mishear "Cameron" as "Karen". (Presumably my allegro pronunciation is something like [ˈkʰæˑmɹnˌ], so missing the [m] is all that's needed to completely change the name.)

[finlay]

One of my least favourite things about Japanese, and about teaching English to Japanese speakers, is that they've borrowed these words as if they have strong stress on the second syllable, like /gaˈreidʒ/ and /meˈseidʒ/ (it's then passing through the filter of Japanese phonotactics and coming out as /gare:dʒi/ and /mes.se:dʒi/). Or /tʃokore:to/ for chocolate - I don't know any English that wouldn't have a schwa for 'a' there, and most accents I know habitually delete the second o. I don't really care about R vs L, I'd be happy if they could just say /tʃɒkrət/ when they speak English. Literally half of my job is trying to get them to realize that the Japanized pronunciation of English loanwords is usually/always different from the original, and stop saying these monstrosities. And to get them to stop legitimizing it by calling it "Japanese English". It's just not English anymore.

It just confuses me, like, whoever brought these words into Japanese and standardized them obviously didn't speak English and was guessing based on the spelling of the words...

[Ars Lande]

Interesting. The stereotype that I think I remember about Parisian speakers is that they pronounce word-final e muets in situations where other speakers would not. So "garage" would come out as "garageuh." Is my impression accurate? Maybe I'm misremembering and this is only supposed to apply to words ending with /r/.

I'm not very good at phonetics, but adding sort of a long, nasalized shwa at the end of sentences (or maybe at the end of stress groups?) is common in the Paris area. I once heard myself doing it on recordings, to my considerable shame (I find it annoying).

[linguoboy]

I'm not very good at phonetics, but adding sort of a long, nasalized shwa at the end of sentences (or maybe at the end of stress groups?) is common in the Paris area. I once heard myself doing it on recordings, to my considerable shame (I find it annoying).

I have a Francophone coworker who does this when speaking English. Like her "yes" is always ['jɛsːə]. Super annoying. (But that might be just because she's an awful person. In someone with a different personality, it might even be endearing.)

The odd thing is she's from Marseille, not Paris. So all this time I thought this was a Southern French peculiarity.