Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlearn

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by linguoboy »

Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.

User avatar
Io
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:00 am
Location: a.s.l. p.l.s.
Contact:

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Io »

I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!

Sumelic
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 385
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:05 pm

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Sumelic »

Io wrote:I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!
I've never heard "lellow", or heard of it before now.

"Yeller" (or "yaller", for people who merge "celery" into "salary"), is very well-known, but I don't know how common the change is. My understanding is that it results from a neutralization of final unstressed /oʊ/ to /ə/, followed by changing word-final /ə/ in some words to /ər/ or /ɚ/. These changes are familar to most North American English speakers and common in some regional accents (a somewhat similar change is to turn the "happy" vowel to /ə/, most well-known with the state name "Missouri", pronounced by some as "Missoura").

It's a general process not confined to this one word: other words that can be affected are pillow > "piller", window > "winder", etc. It's mentioned in as occuring in "some Southern dialects, such as Appalachia and the Ozarks" in "R-Dissimilation in English", by Nancy Hall (2007, p. 30); an interesting fact is that this r-insertion is blocked for some speakers in the studied dialects after /rə/, as in arrow ("arra" rather than "arrer"), tomorrow (tomorra"), borrow ("borra").

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by linguoboy »

Io wrote:I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!
I've never heard "lellow" from an adult before. It's relatively common in the speech of young children, however.

User avatar
Soap
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1228
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm
Location: Scattered disc
Contact:

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Soap »

linguoboy wrote:
Io wrote:I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!
I've never heard "lellow" from an adult before. It's relatively common in the speech of young children, however.
Yeah that sounds like a child who is just learning to pronounce /l/. Children who cant pronounce [l] will often substitute [w], [j], or a hiatus where the /l/ should be. Some of these words get internalized as having those sounds even though the child hears adults pronounce them properly. Then when they do master the pronunciation of the sound, they insert [l] even in places where it doesnt belong.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Image

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Salmoneus »

linguoboy wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.
Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?

For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

Sumelic
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 385
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:05 pm

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Sumelic »

Salmoneus wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.
Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?

For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
Disyllabic pronunciations of words with /ɔɪ̯əl/ instead of /ɔɪ̯l/ are pretty common (especially in American English, perhaps?). Of course, most people do not distinguish /əl/, /ɪl/, and /l̩/, so you could write it as any of those. The important thing is that it is perceived as syllabic.

I have it. For me, I would say it is related to the collapse of "cruel"/"fool" and "real/meal", mostly in the opposite direction (e.g. "cruel" and "real" seem like monosyllables to me, although "dual" is still disyllabic for me).

The same applies to /aɪ(ə)l/, and to a lesser extent (for me, at least) to /aʊ(ə)l/. "Smiles" definitely feels disyllabic, while "owls" only kind of feels disyllabic. I guess also after rhotic vowels: "world" and "Karl" also kind of feel like disyllables, while "Charles" definitely feels like a disyllable. Obviously insertion of (ə) has existed for a long time before coda /r/, hence the standard British English distinction between "fire" and "fie".

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Travis B. »

It is quite normal in NAE at least to have disyllabic realizations of historical /aɪ̯(ə)l aʊ̯(ə)l ɔɪ̯(ə)l/; I actually am surprised that you do not have this, Sal.

(Conversely, it is normal here to have monosyllabic realizations of historical /iː(ə)l uː(ə)l eɪ̯(ə)l oʊ̯(ə)l/, and historical monosyllabic and disyllabic forms of these have invariably merged here.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by linguoboy »

My idiolect has sporadic smoothing before sonorants (a relic of my early years in Baldimer, Marilyn), so if I try to force myself to make these words truly monosyllabic, I'm liable to loose the offglide altogether (e.g. oil becomes a homophone for awl).

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Travis B. »

I very frequently have smoothing of /aɪ̯l/ to [aɤ̯] rather than the expected [ae̯ɯ] (e.g. I'll [aɤ̯], mile [maɤ̯]). Somewhat less frequently I also have smoothing of /aʊ̯l/ to [ɑɤ̯] rather than the expected [ɑwʊ] (towel [tʰɑɤ̯]).
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
xxx
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by xxx »

My french L1 make my whole pronunciation of my basic english something hazardous...

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by finlay »

Sumelic wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.
Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?

For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
Disyllabic pronunciations of words with /ɔɪ̯əl/ instead of /ɔɪ̯l/ are pretty common (especially in American English, perhaps?). Of course, most people do not distinguish /əl/, /ɪl/, and /l̩/, so you could write it as any of those. The important thing is that it is perceived as syllabic.

I have it. For me, I would say it is related to the collapse of "cruel"/"fool" and "real/meal", mostly in the opposite direction (e.g. "cruel" and "real" seem like monosyllables to me, although "dual" is still disyllabic for me).

The same applies to /aɪ(ə)l/, and to a lesser extent (for me, at least) to /aʊ(ə)l/. "Smiles" definitely feels disyllabic, while "owls" only kind of feels disyllabic. I guess also after rhotic vowels: "world" and "Karl" also kind of feel like disyllables, while "Charles" definitely feels like a disyllable. Obviously insertion of (ə) has existed for a long time before coda /r/, hence the standard British English distinction between "fire" and "fie".
for a long time I couldn't pronounce Marlboro, like the name of the cigarettes, because it would always come out [maɹəɫbəɫə] (the dissimilation or assimilation of the second R to L, whichever it is, is a different thing of course). if I do it englishly, by dropping the first R, i can say it (like [mɑːlbəɹə]).

User avatar
Raphael
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:01 am
Location: Just outside Hamburg, Germany

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Raphael »

When I first heard of British Conservative politician Michael Gove, I had two guesses about how his surname is pronounced, and as it turned out, both were wrong. I thought that he would either be pronounced "Goh-vee", or like "dove", except with a "g" in place of the "d". But no, he's actually pronounced "Gohv". Silly me.

User avatar
Zaarin
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Zaarin »

finlay wrote:
Sumelic wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.
Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?

For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
Disyllabic pronunciations of words with /ɔɪ̯əl/ instead of /ɔɪ̯l/ are pretty common (especially in American English, perhaps?). Of course, most people do not distinguish /əl/, /ɪl/, and /l̩/, so you could write it as any of those. The important thing is that it is perceived as syllabic.

I have it. For me, I would say it is related to the collapse of "cruel"/"fool" and "real/meal", mostly in the opposite direction (e.g. "cruel" and "real" seem like monosyllables to me, although "dual" is still disyllabic for me).

The same applies to /aɪ(ə)l/, and to a lesser extent (for me, at least) to /aʊ(ə)l/. "Smiles" definitely feels disyllabic, while "owls" only kind of feels disyllabic. I guess also after rhotic vowels: "world" and "Karl" also kind of feel like disyllables, while "Charles" definitely feels like a disyllable. Obviously insertion of (ə) has existed for a long time before coda /r/, hence the standard British English distinction between "fire" and "fie".
for a long time I couldn't pronounce Marlboro, like the name of the cigarettes, because it would always come out [maɹəɫbəɫə] (the dissimilation or assimilation of the second R to L, whichever it is, is a different thing of course). if I do it englishly, by dropping the first R, i can say it (like [mɑːlbəɹə]).
Reminds me that I have to pronounce thistle very consciously and slowly else it comes out [θɪθɫ̩], likewise with other instances of /θ...s/ (but not /s...θ/, interestingly).
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

richard1631978
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by richard1631978 »

While RWBY Chibi recently I noticed some characters were saying flan like flarn, adding an r for some reason.

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Salmoneus »

richard1631978 wrote:While RWBY Chibi recently I noticed some characters were saying flan like flarn, adding an r for some reason.
I have no idea what the first half of that sentence is meant to mean, but yes, Americans apparently pronounce it "flarn" (but it's not a real /r/). Presumably they're following some "foreign foods must all have aaaaaarrrrr in them because it sounds pretentious" rule, to go along with parsta and the like.

If you mean you heard someone say it with a real /r/, it may be someone trying to emulate that pronunciation and getting confused by the rhotic/nonrhotic distinction?
[Americans say it long and we say it short. But if we said it long, Americans might say it with /r/, because American /ar/ is what most often corresponds to our /A/.]
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

User avatar
jal
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2633
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:03 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by jal »

Salmoneus wrote:I have no idea what the first half of that sentence is meant to mean
I think there's a "watching" missing there.


JAL

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Travis B. »

Salmoneus wrote:
richard1631978 wrote:While RWBY Chibi recently I noticed some characters were saying flan like flarn, adding an r for some reason.
I have no idea what the first half of that sentence is meant to mean, but yes, Americans apparently pronounce it "flarn" (but it's not a real /r/). Presumably they're following some "foreign foods must all have aaaaaarrrrr in them because it sounds pretentious" rule, to go along with parsta and the like.

If you mean you heard someone say it with a real /r/, it may be someone trying to emulate that pronunciation and getting confused by the rhotic/nonrhotic distinction?
[Americans say it long and we say it short. But if we said it long, Americans might say it with /r/, because American /ar/ is what most often corresponds to our /A/.]
This sounds really, really weird to me as an American, as we don't think of these words as having /r/ in them because the vast majority of us are (obviously) rhotic.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Vijay
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Vijay »

Wtf? I've never heard anyone saying "flarn" for "flan." When I see "flan," I automatically think [flæn] but hear people saying [flɑn]. Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Salmoneus »

Vijay wrote: Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.
In the UK, yes; but a lot of Americans pronounce it with /ɑː/ (i.e. "ar"). That's the pronunciation Wikipedia gives, too.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

Vijay
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Vijay »

Salmoneus wrote:
Vijay wrote: Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.
In the UK, yes; but a lot of Americans pronounce it with /ɑː/ (i.e. "ar"). That's the pronunciation Wikipedia gives, too.
Oh OK, so that's what you meant by <ar>!

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Travis B. »

Salmoneus wrote:
Vijay wrote: Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.
In the UK, yes; but a lot of Americans pronounce it with /ɑː/ (i.e. "ar"). That's the pronunciation Wikipedia gives, too.
Yes, but us Americans don't think "ar" when we hear /ɑː/.

And what about words like bath in RP? Do you think of this as being "barth"?
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
StrangerCoug
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
Location: El Paso, TX

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by StrangerCoug »

Travis B. wrote:Yes, but us Americans don't think "ar" when we hear /ɑː/.
Yeah. As an American, I find using <r> to transcribe a long vowel misleading, since my idiolect is rhotic.

Edit: Deleted the second line of Travis's post in the quote so mine wouldn't be misinterpreted as an answer to his question.
Current avatar by malibupup of FurAffinity.

My conlangs on this site:
Proto-Wideriver

gmalivuk
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:24 am

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by gmalivuk »

I don't pronounce "flan" and "pasta" the way I do to be pretentious, I pronounce them that way because it actually somewhat approximates how they're pronounced in the original languages.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea

Post by Travis B. »

gmalivuk wrote:I don't pronounce "flan" and "pasta" the way I do to be pretentious, I pronounce them that way because it actually somewhat approximates how they're pronounced in the original languages.
Same here, because /ɑː/ IMD is normally plain [a], while /æ/ is normally the much fronter and higher [ɛ].
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Post Reply