zompist bboard

I'd never even heard of flan until the context of learning Spanish, so for me that's usually even more [a] than the vowel in "pasta", which comes out more like [ɑ].

(Was Salmoneus one of the people earlier in this thread who pronounces an /l/ in "quesadilla"?)

Turns out I was the only one who mentioned quesadillas. The rest of the discussion I was thinking of was about guillotines.

viewtopic.php?p=1124126#p1124126

jal wrote:

Salmoneus wrote:I have no idea what the first half of that sentence is meant to mean

I think there's a "watching" missing there.


JAL

Sorry about that!

Hmm. Apparently, <solenoid> is /ˈsoʊ.lə.nɔɪd/, not /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/.

StrangerCoug wrote:Hmm. Apparently, <solenoid> is /ˈsoʊ.lə.nɔɪd/, not /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/.

Is /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/ the pronunciation you would expect based on some spelling pattern, or do you not know why you expected it? I forget, what type of accent do you have and which vowel does /ɔ/ mean to you (I'd guess THOUGHT, but I know some people like Australians sometimes use to transcribe the vowel of LOT)?

The OED says "Brit. /ˈsəʊlənɔɪd/, /ˈsɒlənɔɪd/, U.S. /ˈsɑləˌnɔɪd/".

Having "o" represent the THOUGHT vowel is relatively rare, but in American English at least "o" is fairly commonly CLOTH (which is merged with historical THOUGHT as /ɔ/). It seems fairly common for "o" before /l/ to be realized as CLOTH /ɔ/ when the l is in a syllable coda (as in "golf", "solve" or "alcohol") but I can't currently remember hearing of an American accent where historic "short o" is /ɔ/ before /l/ in all contexts, but an /ɑ/ vs. /ɔ/ distinction is still maintained in other contexts. (I know that CLOTH can sometimes show up before intervocalic /l/ due to analogy/derivation/inflection, as in alcoholic < alcohol or aerosoling < aerosol, but that wouldn't be a possible explanation in solenoid, unless it was influenced by association with the word sol or Sol.)

A pronunciation with "short o" doesn't seem particularly objectionable to me, although it does seem that the pronunciation with "long o" is significantly more common and also not objectionable.

• It is derived from Greek σωλήν with long o, but it isn't usually regular for Greek/Latin vowel length to affect English pronunciations.
• Also, the word seems to be partly derived from French solénoïde, which I wouldn't expect to have a long vowel in the first syllable (I'm not certain because I haven't bothered to check, but many accents of French don't have vowel length at all and in the ones that do, a plain letter "o" in this position wouldn't usually correspond to a long vowel in pronunciation).
• A vowel in a stressed syllable that is followed by an unstressed syllable and then a third syllable tends to be pronounced short (the so-called "trisyllabic laxing" rule, although it's apparently unclear whether there was ever a real synchronic process of shortening/laxing vowels in these contexts), and the first vowel of "solenoid" meets these criteria in modern English. Even though -oid is a weird suffix that ought to be two syllables if it were pronounced regularly, that doesn't seem like it would affect this.
• The evidence of other similarly-formed words seems to be mixed, and therefore inconclusive: sesamoid < Gr. σησαμοειδής (with a long e) is always pronounced with a short vowel, gyn(a)ecoid is pronounced both ways, and can additionally have stress on the "(a)e" because it is derived from an original diphthong; flavonoid is pronounced both ways, despite the first syllable being ultimately derived from Latin flāvus with a long vowel (although the long pronunciation does seem to be considerably more common); hyracoid seems to always be pronounced with a long vowel, by influence from the noun hyrax, even though the "y" of the root seems to have been originally short in Greek. The OED does have an entry for solen as a word in English but it doesn't seem to have ever been very common, or the direct source of the word solenoid, so it doesn't seem to me that there is any particularly strong pressure to pronounce these words with the same vowel sound, as there is for hyrax and hyracoid.

Sumelic wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:Hmm. Apparently, <solenoid> is /ˈsoʊ.lə.nɔɪd/, not /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/.

Is /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/ the pronunciation you would expect based on some spelling pattern, or do you not know why you expected it?

I'm pretty sure it's by analogy with "solid".

Sumelic wrote:I forget, what type of accent do you have and which vowel does /ɔ/ mean to you (I'd guess THOUGHT, but I know some people like Australians sometimes use to transcribe the vowel of LOT)?

My exact accent's been hard for others to pin down, but I would think that's it's mostly based on U.S. military English since I was born into a military family. (I'm going to open up about having Asperger's here since that plays a factor in my idiolect, too.) And yes, it's the THOUGHT vowel.

[ˈsoːʊ̯ɘ̃ːˌnɔːɪ̯t] and [ˈsaːɯ̯ɘ̃ːˌnɔːɪ̯t] both sound about equally good to me.

StrangerCoug wrote:

Sumelic wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:Hmm. Apparently, <solenoid> is /ˈsoʊ.lə.nɔɪd/, not /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/.

Is /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/ the pronunciation you would expect based on some spelling pattern, or do you not know why you expected it?

I'm pretty sure it's by analogy with "solid".

Sumelic wrote:I forget, what type of accent do you have and which vowel does /ɔ/ mean to you (I'd guess THOUGHT, but I know some people like Australians sometimes use to transcribe the vowel of LOT)?

My exact accent's been hard for others to pin down, but I would think that's it's mostly based on U.S. military English since I was born into a military family. (I'm going to open up about having Asperger's here since that plays a factor in my idiolect, too.) And yes, it's the THOUGHT vowel.

I see. Can you think of any word that has /ɑl/ for you? Does that seem like a possible sequence of sounds in your idiolect, or does it seem awkward or not allowed? I guess some examples where I'm wondering if it might occur: hollow, Dahl, I'll.

Sumelic wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:

Sumelic wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:Hmm. Apparently, <solenoid> is /ˈsoʊ.lə.nɔɪd/, not /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/.

Is /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/ the pronunciation you would expect based on some spelling pattern, or do you not know why you expected it?

I'm pretty sure it's by analogy with "solid".

Sumelic wrote:I forget, what type of accent do you have and which vowel does /ɔ/ mean to you (I'd guess THOUGHT, but I know some people like Australians sometimes use to transcribe the vowel of LOT)?

My exact accent's been hard for others to pin down, but I would think that's it's mostly based on U.S. military English since I was born into a military family. (I'm going to open up about having Asperger's here since that plays a factor in my idiolect, too.) And yes, it's the THOUGHT vowel.

I see. Can you think of any word that has /ɑl/ for you? Does that seem like a possible sequence of sounds in your idiolect, or does it seem awkward or not allowed? I guess some examples where I'm wondering if it might occur: hollow, Dahl, I'll.

<I'll> has a diphthong in my idiolect; everything else I'm pronouncing in my head seems to be getting affected by the cot-caught merger (which I should have mentioned last time I have in my normal speech—sorry). So I'll say my idiolect disallows /ɑl/.

Sumelic wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:Hmm. Apparently, <solenoid> is /ˈsoʊ.lə.nɔɪd/, not /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/.

Is /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/ the pronunciation you would expect based on some spelling pattern, or do you not know why you expected it? I forget, what type of accent do you have and which vowel does /ɔ/ mean to you (I'd guess THOUGHT, but I know some people like Australians sometimes use to transcribe the vowel of LOT)?

The OED says "Brit. /ˈsəʊlənɔɪd/, /ˈsɒlənɔɪd/, U.S. /ˈsɑləˌnɔɪd/".

Having "o" represent the THOUGHT vowel is relatively rare, but in American English at least "o" is fairly commonly CLOTH (which is merged with historical THOUGHT as /ɔ/). It seems fairly common for "o" before /l/ to be realized as CLOTH /ɔ/ when the l is in a syllable coda (as in "golf", "solve" or "alcohol") but I can't currently remember hearing of an American accent where historic "short o" is /ɔ/ before /l/ in all contexts, but an /ɑ/ vs. /ɔ/ distinction is still maintained in other contexts. (I know that CLOTH can sometimes show up before intervocalic /l/ due to analogy/derivation/inflection, as in alcoholic < alcohol or aerosoling < aerosol, but that wouldn't be a possible explanation in solenoid, unless it was influenced by association with the word sol or Sol.)

A pronunciation with "short o" doesn't seem particularly objectionable to me, although it does seem that the pronunciation with "long o" is significantly more common and also not objectionable.

• It is derived from Greek σωλήν with long o, but it isn't usually regular for Greek/Latin vowel length to affect English pronunciations.
• Also, the word seems to be partly derived from French solénoïde, which I wouldn't expect to have a long vowel in the first syllable (I'm not certain because I haven't bothered to check, but many accents of French don't have vowel length at all and in the ones that do, a plain letter "o" in this position wouldn't usually correspond to a long vowel in pronunciation).
• A vowel in a stressed syllable that is followed by an unstressed syllable and then a third syllable tends to be pronounced short (the so-called "trisyllabic laxing" rule, although it's apparently unclear whether there was ever a real synchronic process of shortening/laxing vowels in these contexts), and the first vowel of "solenoid" meets these criteria in modern English. Even though -oid is a weird suffix that ought to be two syllables if it were pronounced regularly, that doesn't seem like it would affect this.
• The evidence of other similarly-formed words seems to be mixed, and therefore inconclusive: sesamoid < Gr. σησαμοειδής (with a long e) is always pronounced with a short vowel, gyn(a)ecoid is pronounced both ways, and can additionally have stress on the "(a)e" because it is derived from an original diphthong; flavonoid is pronounced both ways, despite the first syllable being ultimately derived from Latin flāvus with a long vowel (although the long pronunciation does seem to be considerably more common); hyracoid seems to always be pronounced with a long vowel, by influence from the noun hyrax, even though the "y" of the root seems to have been originally short in Greek. The OED does have an entry for solen as a word in English but it doesn't seem to have ever been very common, or the direct source of the word solenoid, so it doesn't seem to me that there is any particularly strong pressure to pronounce these words with the same vowel sound, as there is for hyrax and hyracoid.

I would probably pronounce "solenoid" with "short o" /[ɔ] as /sɔlɘnoɘd/ [sɔɻˡənöɪ̈ːt']

I just learned today that the past tense of glow is glowed. I'd been saying glew all my god damn life.

StrangerCoug wrote:

Sumelic wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:

Sumelic wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:Hmm. Apparently, <solenoid> is /ˈsoʊ.lə.nɔɪd/, not /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/.

Is /ˈsɔl.ə.nɔɪd/ the pronunciation you would expect based on some spelling pattern, or do you not know why you expected it?

I'm pretty sure it's by analogy with "solid".

Sumelic wrote:I forget, what type of accent do you have and which vowel does /ɔ/ mean to you (I'd guess THOUGHT, but I know some people like Australians sometimes use to transcribe the vowel of LOT)?

My exact accent's been hard for others to pin down, but I would think that's it's mostly based on U.S. military English since I was born into a military family. (I'm going to open up about having Asperger's here since that plays a factor in my idiolect, too.) And yes, it's the THOUGHT vowel.

I see. Can you think of any word that has /ɑl/ for you? Does that seem like a possible sequence of sounds in your idiolect, or does it seem awkward or not allowed? I guess some examples where I'm wondering if it might occur: hollow, Dahl, I'll.

<I'll> has a diphthong in my idiolect; everything else I'm pronouncing in my head seems to be getting affected by the cot-caught merger (which I should have mentioned last time I have in my normal speech—sorry). So I'll say my idiolect disallows /ɑl/.

If you have the cot-caught merger, how are you claiming to have CAUGHT in "solenoid" while also claiming to disallow COT before /l/? If they're merged, they can't be different!

Other reactions:
Americans have CAUGHT in "solid"!?
Americans have COT in "I'll"?

When they're reduced I don't finish the diphthong in "I'm" or "I'll", and both have pretty much the COT vowel.

Huh. I've never noticed it before, but I do more-or-less have COT in I'll.

I have COT in "solid", though; I don't have the COT-CAUGHT merger.

Is COT the same as LOT? If so, has CAUGHT the same quality as LOT and only different length?

In case of "I'll", isn't that the diphthongue being monophthongized to the starting point? (In which case I think you can't really say it's COT.)


JAL

jal wrote:Is COT the same as LOT? If so, has CAUGHT the same quality as LOT and only different length?

In case of "I'll", isn't that the diphthongue being monophthongized to the starting point? (In which case I think you can't really say it's COT.)

Yeah, this is called "(diphthong) smoothing". I have it, too, sporadically; it's one of the few vestiges of Bawlmerese in my speech. My Dad has even been known to centralise the vowel in these cases (e.g. soil [ˈsʌˑɫ]) so even [ʌˑɫ] for I'll doesn't sound odd to me and may be an occasional variant in my own speech.

jal wrote:Is COT the same as LOT? If so, has CAUGHT the same quality as LOT and only different length?

Maybe in some dialects. In RP, no - the "lot" vowel is lower - /Q/ rather than /O/. Plus other things. ["caught" often has a genuinely rounded vowel, whereas "cot" more often has a sulcalised vowel, and iirc sometimes other back-of-tongue stuff.]

In case of "I'll", isn't that the diphthongue being monophthongized to the starting point? (In which case I think you can't really say it's COT.)

Personally, I'm not surprised by some sort of shortening of the common grammatical word in casual speech, but I am surprised to see it rise, in some people's minds, to the phonemic level.

I frequently have LOT in words like I'll, mile, file, while, i.e. [a(ː)ɤ̯ ma(ː)ɤ̯ fa(ː)ɤ̯ wa(ː)ɤ̯].

Salmoneus wrote:If you have the cot-caught merger, how are you claiming to have CAUGHT in "solenoid" while also claiming to disallow COT before /l/? If they're merged, they can't be different!

The answer I gave to whether I had the COT or the THOUGHT vowel in <solenoid> was misleading, as perhaps was using /ɔ/ to describe the merged vowel (because I've mentally associated short o with /ɔ/ instead of /ɑ/ for God knows how long). It was my error that caused confusion, and I apologize for it.

jal wrote:Is COT the same as LOT? If so, has CAUGHT the same quality as LOT and only different length?

In case of "I'll", isn't that the diphthongue being monophthongized to the starting point? (In which case I think you can't really say it's COT.)


JAL

Whoops, haha, yes, I meant LOT. (which is indeed my "cot" vowel) For some reason, I always end up writing "COT" for that vowel, even though that obviously isn't very helpful! My "caught" vowel is my CLOTH vowel (although because I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, it's lower than the usual American CLOTH, and my LOT is farther forward).

Salmoneus wrote:

jal wrote:Is COT the same as LOT? If so, has CAUGHT the same quality as LOT and only different length?

Maybe in some dialects. In RP, no - the "lot" vowel is lower - /Q/ rather than /O/. Plus other things. ["caught" often has a genuinely rounded vowel, whereas "cot" more often has a sulcalised vowel, and iirc sometimes other back-of-tongue stuff.]

In case of "I'll", isn't that the diphthongue being monophthongized to the starting point? (In which case I think you can't really say it's COT.)

Personally, I'm not surprised by some sort of shortening of the common grammatical word in casual speech, but I am surprised to see it rise, in some people's minds, to the phonemic level.

Has anyone said it rose to the phonemic level in <I'll>?

I think it's more likely some people simply aren't being rigorous about / / versus [ ].

Before I learned to read and spell I knew the word "I'll" and grouped it in my mind with "olive". I'd say that since, even in stressed position, the vowel of I'll is always [a] (though i know it varies per dialect), that it *is* phonemic, and that the I'll that has a full diphthong is a separate word in the sense that the three pronunciations of supposed are separate words with distinct meanings.

Are decor and decker homophones for anybody?

Vijay wrote:Are decor and decker homophones for anybody?

Not for me, not even close: decor [dɛɪ̯ˈkʰor̠ˁ] vs. decker [ˈdɛkr̩ˁ].

Zaarin wrote:

Vijay wrote:Are decor and decker homophones for anybody?

Not for me, not even close: decor [dɛɪ̯ˈkʰor̠ˁ] vs. decker [ˈdɛkr̩ˁ].

That's kind of what I was expecting, but for me, they are. I may have started transitioning away from that, though.