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StrangerCoug wrote:"Edinburgh", which I originally thought was pronounced "Eden-berg".

Welcome to the quagmire of British place names. How d'you think Leicester and Worcester are pronounced, without googling?

KathTheDragon wrote:

StrangerCoug wrote:"Edinburgh", which I originally thought was pronounced "Eden-berg".

Welcome to the quagmire of British place names. How d'you think Leicester and Worcester are pronounced, without googling?

The extended case that confuses Americans: Worcestershire sauce. It only has three syllables (because although it says 'worcestershire', i've never heard anybody not say it as though it said 'worcester' instead).

But how about some from around my part of the country? [Well, not really, but near enough for me to know] How about:
Wrotham
Meopham
Vigo
Mereworth
Trottiscliffe
Capel-le-Ferne
Exceat
Beult
Boughton Malherbe
Hougham
Lympne
Hainault
Steyning

I'm just giving modern, normal-dialect ones. If you head into Sussex and start asking old farmer people what places are called, it's a whole different world...

Oh, and on a national level, a particularly good one is Keighley...

Salmoneus wrote:But how about some from around my part of the country? [Well, not really, but near enough for me to know]

Well... Here are my attempts. Watch me fail miserably

• Wrotham: /ˈɹɔθ.m̩/
• Meopham /ˈmeɪ.joʊ.ˌfam/
• Vigo: /ˈviː.ˌɡoʊ/
• Mereworth: /mɛɚ.wɔ˞θ/
• Trottiscliffe: /ˈtʰɹɔt.ɪs.ˌklif/
• Capel-le-Ferne: /kə.ˈpɛl lə ˈfɝn/
• Exceat: /ek.ˈseɪ.jɨt/
• Beult: probably similar to the British pronunciation of "boat" if the diphthong doesn't start more front
• Boughton Malherbe: /ˈbaʊ.tn̩ ˌmæl̴.ˈlɝb/
• Hougham: /haʊ.(w)m̩/
• Lympne: like "limp" (my brain gives up on the <ne>)
• Hainault: /ˈhaɪ.ˌnɑlt/
• Steyning: like "staining"
• Keighley: /kʰiː.liː/

Wrotham /rOT@m/
Meopham /mEp@m/
Vigo /vaigo/
Mereworth /mirw@`T/
Trottiscliffe /trOsklIf/
Capel-le-Ferne /kep@l@f@`n/
Exceat /1ksit/
Beult /bjult/
Boughton Malherbe /bOt@n m{l@`b/
Hougham /hOm/
Lympne /lIm/
Hainault /hen@t/
Steyning /sten1N/

Now some American place names:

Bowie
Youghiogheny
Taneytown
Staunton
Poughkeepsie
Schuylkill
Montgomery
Allegheny
Plymouth
Gloucester
Lancaster
Havre de Grace
Michigan
Bolivar
Newark
Newark
Newark
Zzyzx

(I've listed Newark three times. This is not a mistake. "Newark", "Newark", and "Newark" are all pronounced differently.)

I'll play. These are not always the pronunciations I would have naturally gone for, but you've pointed out that something's odd about them, so...

Wrotham - [ˈɹoʊðəm]
Meopham - [ˈmoʊpəm]
Vigo - [ˈvaɪɡoʊ]
Mereworth - [ˈmɪɹɪθ]
Trottiscliffe - [ˈtɹɔsklɪf]
Capel-le-Ferne - [ˈkæplfəɹn]
Exceat - [ˈɛsɪt]
Beult - [boʊ]
Boughton Malherbe - [ˈboʊtən ˈmæləɹb]
Hougham - [ˈhoʊ.ɪm]
Lympne - [lɪm]
Hainault - [ˈhɛnəlt]
Steyning - [ˈstɛnɪŋ]

- - -

And the American ones:

Bowie - [ˈbaʊwi]
Youghiogheny - [ˈjuːɡəˌɡɪni]
Taneytown - [ˈteɪnitən]
Staunton - [ˈstɔːntən]
Poughkeepsie - [ˈpəkɪpsi]
Schuylkill - [ˈʃaɪkɪl] - I once knew the pronunciation of this one and the two previous ones, but I've since forgotten.
Montgomery - [məŋˈɡʌmɹi]
Allegheny - [ˈæləɡɪni]
Plymouth - [ˈplɪməθ], and if not, it should be
Gloucester - [ˈɡlɔstəɹ], and if not, it should be
Lancaster - [ˈlæŋkəstəɹ]
Havre de Grace - Oh boy. Let me think. How would the average American butcher this? [ˌhɑːvdəˈɡreɪs]
Michigan - [ˈmɪʃɪɡən]
Bolivar - [ˈboʊlɪvɑɹ]
Newark - [ˈnuwək]
Newark - [ˈnjuːwək]
Newark - [ˈnjuːwɑɹk]
Zzyzx - [zɪks] ??

I remember one time, my parents (or was it just dad?), brother, and I were flying from somewhere to Norfolk, and that was when I learned how Norfolk is pronounced, i.e. exactly like nor fuck. As a result, I asked my dad and brother, "Are we allowed to say that word on the plane?" They laughed and confirmed that we were, so then I came to realize that there's also Suffolk in addition to Norfolk (and thought, "So there's Nor-fuck, Suf-fuck, and Middle-sex?") and asked why there wasn't also an Eastfolk and Westfolk where the "folk" part wasn't pronounced the same way.

Norfolk and "nor fuck" do not sound alike for me. /'nɔfək/ vs /'nɔfʌk/

Now my linguistics professors would probably accuse you of lying since they don't seem to believe there's a difference between [ə] and [ʌ] or that [ʌ] can occur in unstressed syllables. (Well, OK, they'd probably say the second differed from the first in stress - it would be the fuck part that's stressed, not the nor).

Bowie - ?[buwi]
Youghiogheny - ?[ja.ɪɡani]
Taneytown - ?[teɪnitæʊn]
Staunton - [steɪntən] -- sadly this was where I grew up. The vowel is not intuitive.
Poughkeepsie - [pukɪpsi]
Schuylkill - ?[skoɪkɪl].
Montgomery - [mɑntɡʌməɹi]
Allegheny - [æləɡeni ~ ælɛɡeni] -- Both work.
Plymouth - [plɪməθ],
Gloucester - [ɡlɔstəɹ],
Lancaster - [læŋkɛstəɹ]
Havre de Grace - ?[hɑvdəɡɹeɪs]
Michigan - [mɪʃɪɡɪn ~ mɪʃəɡɪn]
Bolivar - ?[boʊlɪvɑɹ]
Newark - [nuwəɹk]
Newark - [njuːwəɹk]
Newark - [nuwɑɹk]
Zzyzx - uhh.. [b̼ʙ̼:]

Try, Buena Vista (there several ways to do this one, but one is much worse than most)

Vijay wrote:Now my linguistics professors would probably accuse you of lying since they don't seem to believe there's a difference between [ə] and [ʌ] or that [ʌ] can occur in unstressed syllables. (Well, OK, they'd probably say the second differed from the first in stress - it would be the fuck part that's stressed, not the nor).

The empirical evidence disagrees

2+3 clusivity wrote:Try, Buena Vista (there several ways to do this one, but one is much worse than most)

oh god it isn't [bjunə vɪstə] is it

2+3 clusivity wrote:Staunton - [steɪntən] -- sadly this was where I grew up. The vowel is not intuitive.

Which Staunton are you thinking of? The one I've been to is in Virginia, and it's pronounced [stæntən].

Haha, yes.

It's that one. My English -> IPA vowels/diphthongs is not great.

[stæɪntən] perhaps is better, I was thinking about my transcription on this one -- there seems to be a glide following the initial vowel.

KathTheDragon wrote:

Vijay wrote:Now my linguistics professors would probably accuse you of lying since they don't seem to believe there's a difference between [ə] and [ʌ] or that [ʌ] can occur in unstressed syllables. (Well, OK, they'd probably say the second differed from the first in stress - it would be the fuck part that's stressed, not the nor).

The empirical evidence disagrees

To me, that honestly sounds like [ɨ] vs. [ə], but then I wouldn't call my ears a reliable judge, either.

The first syllable of "Staunton" has the same vowel as "pan".

This reminds me of a lovely little song i once found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOd3lwluQIw

Nortaneous wrote:The first syllable of "Staunton" has the same vowel as "pan".

They do for me as well.

I think of /æ/ as being the vowel in <cat> which is not the same as that in <pan, Staunton> at least for me. Maybe I'm a bit off my rocker -- checking the vowels on the wiktionary entries -- both transcribed as simplex /æ/ -- and the sample US pronunciation, they still sound different to me.

If you pronounce Shawano, Wisconsin correct you'll get a special prize.

Also Waukeshau is a fun one, too.

2+3 clusivity wrote:

Nortaneous wrote:The first syllable of "Staunton" has the same vowel as "pan".

They do for me as well.

I think of /æ/ as being the vowel in <cat> which is not the same as that in <pan, Staunton> at least for me. Maybe I'm a bit off my rocker -- checking the vowels on the wiktionary entries -- both transcribed as simplex /æ/ -- and the sample US pronunciation, they still sound different to me.

I was wondering if you had the trap-bath split, but Wikipedia assigns the TRAP vowel, not the BATH vowel, to <cat>. Something else I'm missing?

Maybe this instead?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronuncia ... 2F_tensing

See especially [ɛ(j)ə~eə] with a following /m, n/ in Southern US English to [eə~æ] in General US.

That has to be it.

Hmmm... let's have a go:

Wrotham /'rɒ.təm/
Meopham /'məʊ.pəm/
Vigo /'vɪ.gə/
Mereworth /'mi:.rəθ/
Trottiscliffe /'trɒts.klɪf/
Capel-le-Ferne /'keɪ.pəl.fən/
Exceat /'ɛk.sɪt/
Beult /bəʊt/
Boughton Malherbe /'bəʊ.tən 'mæ.ləb/
Hougham /'həʊ.wəm/
Lympne /lɪmp/
Hainault /heɪnəʊt/
Steyning /stɛ.nɪŋ/

Checking them afterwards... I only got... one of them right. Oh dear. I only got about half of them even half right

The only ones from around me that I can think of that anyone ever has any trouble with as Masham and Kirby Fleetham. Everything else, more or less, is pronounced the way it's spelt, although people do trip up on Aiskew (I think the spelling makes people think it could be pronounced quite a bit differently, but it's just /eɪ.skju:/) and then mess around with the stress on Bedale, i.e. /bə'deɪəl/ instead of /'bi:.deɪəl/. Man this part of North Yorkshire is boring.

Let's do this !

Wrotham /roθæm/
Meopham /miəfæm/
Vigo /vajgo/
Mereworth /miriworθ/
Trottiscliffe /tratɪsklɪf/
Capel-le-Ferne /kepɛl li fɚn/
Exceat /ɛksit/
Beult /bjult/
Boughton Malherbe /bɔtn̩ mælhɚb/
Hougham /hawgæm/
Lympne /lɪmpn̩/
Hainault /henɔlt/
Steyning /stinɪŋ/

Bowie /bowi/
Youghiogheny /jawiəjini/
Taneytown /tenitawn/
Staunton /stɔntn̩/
Poughkeepsie /pokipsaj/
Schuylkill /stʃʌjlkɪl/
Montgomery /mantgomɚi/
Allegheny /ælijɛni/
Plymouth /plajmawθ/
Gloucester /glawsɛstɚ/
Lancaster /leŋkæstɚ/
Havre de Grace /hevɚ di gres/
Michigan /majtʃajgn̩/
Bolivar /bolajvar/
Newark /niwɚk/
Newark /nework/
Newark /niwork/
Zzyzx /zɪzks/

2+3 clusivity wrote:Maybe this instead?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronuncia ... 2F_tensing

See especially [ɛ(j)ə~eə] with a following /m, n/ in Southern US English to [eə~æ] in General US.

GenAm /æ/ is [eə] before /m n/, yes. The dialects between Baltimore and NYC have a more complicated distribution -- /æ/ and /eə/ can contrast -- but everyone hates New Jersey so we don't have to care.

Atrulfal wrote:Schuylkill /stʃʌjlkɪl/
Zzyzx /zɪzks/

you know these aren't valid by english phonotactics right

answers:

bu.ɨ
ˈjɔkəgenɨ (jɑk-? dunno)
tɔnitaun
stæntən
pəkɪpsɨ
skukəl
ˌmʌŋˈgʌm(ə)rɨ
æləgenɨ
plɪməθ
glɔstər
læŋkəstər
hævər də gres
mɪʃɨgən
bɑlɨvər
ˈnuˌɑrk
ˈnu.ərk
nɚk
zaizɨks

Viktor77 wrote:If you pronounce Shawano, Wisconsin correct you'll get a special prize.

Also Waukeshau is a fun one, too.

/ˈwɒkəʃɒ/ or something similar, right? I know some people from that area. Don't know Shawano, though.

Obligatory Michigan ones:
Sault Ste. Marie
Charlevoix
Ypsilanti
Charlotte
Ontonagon
Clio
Novi

Sault Ste. Marie -- presumably they fuck it up somehow, /sɔlt sent merɨ/?
Charlevoix /ʃarləvoi/
Ypsilanti /ˌɪpsɨˈlæntɨ/
Charlotte /ʃarlət/ (or not?)
Ontonagon /ˈɑntəˌnegən/
Clio /ˈklaiˌo/
Novi /ˈnoˌvai/