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zompist bboard • View topic - Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:56 am 
Sanci
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I was wondering if the [tʃwV] and [tɕjV] clusters are possible to exist. They'd have to be one single syllable, V standing for whatever vowel. It seems weird to me that [w, j] would remain (at least as actual approximants), but at the same time I can't come up with an organic rule or anything else that would prohibit it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:06 am 
Smeric
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I don't see why tʃw couldn't exist. It's a heterorganic cluster. t̜ɕj is a little odd, but I think I can pronounce it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:53 pm 
Avisaru
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They are entirely unremarkable and definitely possible.

For forbidding them, that's easy. /j/ drops after palatals, or /tɕ/ only formed by assimilating and absorbing /j/ in the first place (Japanese tjV>tɕV) so as to preclude any possible clustering in the first place. And coronal+/w/ > labial/labiodental is possible, e.g. Northwestern Mandarin where /tʂw tʂʰw ʂw ɻw/ > /pf pfʰ f v/.

EDIT: I'm a native English speaker, really


Last edited by vokzhen on Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:02 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:11 am 
Lebom
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In my opinion, the presence or absence of a yod between tɕ and another vowel is merely stylistic in phonetic transliteration and represents the same sound, for example, :

Here's Mandarin [t͡ɕi̯a] from Forvo:
[url]http://forvo.com/search/掐/[/url]
And Japanese [t͡ɕa]:
[url]http://forvo.com/search/茶/[/url]

The two words are both high leveled to minimize interference from tones.

Okay phpBB hates url with non ASCII characters, please copy-paste the link.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:14 am 
Avisaru
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Russian contrasts /t͡ɕ/ and /t͡ɕj/, apparently: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18712
I don't really know what's up with Russian /j/ phonetically though, since that language is supposed to generally contrast /CʲV/, /CʲjV/ and /CjV/.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:56 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:34 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:21 am 
Avisaru
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You can analyze Japanese either as having a series of palatalized consonants or syllable-initial Cj clusters. In the first case <ch> is the phonetic realization of /tʲ/, in the second case it is an allophone of t before j or i. In both cases the affrication is incidental, and the dominant feature is [+palatal], which is hardly a good environment to attempt to find palatality distinctions in your affricates in.

Even apart from that, the idea that you can prove with just two examples, which are areally close, the impossibility of a distinction between /ts\/ and /ts\j/, which is itself premised on the fact that notation accurately reflects all facts about the phonology and phonetics of your examples, is spectacularly unsound on all possible criteria. Pls go back to the drawing board.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:14 pm 
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how are russian чьё and чья pronounced

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:28 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:17 pm 
Smeric
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Really, Russian has [ɵ]?? Weird, it just sounds like [o] to me. :?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:33 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:49 pm 
Avisaru
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Last edited by Sumelic on Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:53 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:56 pm 
Avisaru
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No, I just completely missed the soft sign in their spelling and made a stupid post.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:23 am 
Avisaru
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CьjV is realized as a noticeable lengthening of the palatalized consonant with an off-glide. The j is quite clearly heard.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:52 am 
Lebom
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I realize I'm late to this party, but there's a well-known language with [tʃwV] - American English! There's a sound change in progress where /tw/ clusters are being produced as [tʃw]. It's not very well documented, but if you listen out for it you'll notice it.

As for [tɕjV], there are some nice example already presented, and I don't see any a priori reason it shouldn't be possible. If [tɕi] is possible, then [tɕj] is possible too, since they're practically the same thing. (Don't let the symbols fool you!)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:07 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:15 pm 
Sanci
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Palatalized and dorso-palatal sounds are naturally followed by a short [j]-like glide when they are followed by a vowel other than [i], due to the fact that the back of the tongue is around the [j]-position during the articulation of the consonant and then has to move to the place of the vowel.

So it's hard for [tɕa] not to be something like [tɕja]. This glide may be shorter than a regular [j], though, so it's still possible to distinguish /tɕa/ and /tɕja/ based on timing, which seems to be what Russian does.

You can also start the movement away from the palatal position earlier to have a prepalatal(ized) consonant but it may not be that distinctive unless preceded by a vowel.

There's no reason why a language couldn't have [tʃwV], but [tʃ] seems to already be slightly labialized in English which might be why the original poster has trouble distinguishing it from [tʃw].


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:01 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:00 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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