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zompist bboard • View topic - Haida and Na-Dene

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:19 pm 
Smeric
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The idea is that the island-hoppers exist at about the same time as the landlubbers (this is the most ridiculous term I have every seen used to describe prehistoric people), just taking another route. Also, I think the island hoppers could also be Beringian coast-hoppers, while other people took a more inland route on Beringia. The region of Beringia was pretty huge during the time period.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:21 pm 
Sanci
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Since this is somewhat related to the topic, I figured I'd post in this thread about this. I was reading about the Pericú who lived in southern Baja California in Mexico and how they had more advanced seafaring technology than their neighbouring tribes and spoke a language isolate. Apparently both the Pericú and Haida cultures were "warrior-like", had slaves, etc. and hunted deer, which is of course common in places where deer exist, but the Pericúes wore deer heads and the Haida wore/wear headdresses with animal heads. None of those are evidence of any kind of relation or anything, but I thought it was interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:37 pm 
Smeric
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Well, for that matter, there are creatures in Ancient Greek and Egyptian mythology that have (non-human :P) animal heads but human bodies, the Hindu god Ganesha has an elephant's head but a human body, etc. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:18 pm 
Avisaru
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How about this:


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Thanks for the info; it confirmed what I suspected. :) I'll look into it more deeply when I'm feeling better.

As far as the revitalization goes, last I heard Haida still had a dwindling elderly population of speakers who spoke a simplified form of the language (which Mithun notes is the usual sign of language death in polysynthetic languages).

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:21 pm 
Sanno
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As it happens, there's recently been a notable study of native american genetics.

The expected bits:
- the populations of america and the pacific northeast (chukchi, etc) all result from various mixtures of siberians with east asians
- almost all americans descend from a single (60% east asian, 40% siberian) population in Beringia
- the na-dene samples were american with a dash of asian (90-10). This doesn't seem surprising - while the na-dene have long been considered linguistically and culturally distinct, a later migration, most athabaskans have been known for a while to be pretty amerindian in genetics. This suggests a culturally-influential migration that gradually intermingled with the much-more-numerous natives
- greenlanders are 2/3rds Saqqaq (one of the pre-Inuit 'Eskimo' groups), and 1/3rd american. Again, it makes sense that the initial pre-eskimo invasion would mingle with the natives, and that the result would be the source of the second wave
- there was at one stage a relict population in Alaska, from which all the other americans split off (i.e. the people who stayed when the pioneers went south), but which has at some point been lost. Given the harsh conditions, multiple invasions from asia and possibly back-migration from further south, this isn't a surprise.
- the study splits americans into 'north' and 'south' as the primary split in the modern population. However, their "south american" consists of one Aymara sample and one from Montana. Nonetheless, other studies have repeatedly confirmed the basic north/south split - though more studies would be required to see how universal it was. The fact that the Clovis Culture sample from Montana patterns with south america seems to suggest it's not just a simple "inland north america vs coastal south america" split we're looking at, though.


But surprising:
- the Asian componant of na-dene isn't particularly closely related to the asian componant in Ket. The closest connection was to Koryak, then to Saqqaq, THEN to Ket. [the siberian admixture into Ket seems even more divergent from that into everything pacificky, so was probably later]. This may mean:
-- Dene-Yeneseian is wrong
-- The Ket have been genetically replaced by another siberian/asian mix in the same area but wih different ancestry, while keeping their language
-- The Na-Dene have been genetically replaced twice (first by a different asian group, and then by americans)
-- Not only are EA and CK related to DY, but they're actually internal to DY somehow
-- There was once a more widespread family comprising Dene-Yeneseian and the former languages of the Koryak and Saqqaq, but the latter groups adopted the languages of CK and EA groups later on.

Impossible to say at this stage which it is, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:53 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:44 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:08 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:17 am 
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The notion of PIE speakers being Mongol-like nomadic steppe horsemen is a strawman the proponents of the Anatolian hypothesis and of Paleolithic Continuity like to whack. Nobody believes in this anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:51 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:14 am 
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It is indeed quite likely that the speakers of PIE were the ones who domesticated the horse which gave them a military advantage over their neighbours, but domesticated horses do not make them Mongol-like nomads. There are plenty of cultures who have domesticated horses and are nothing like Mongols.

Archaeologists say that at least in the western half of the area where PIE was spoken (which is famously suited to agriculture), people were sedentary agriculturalists who cultivated both crops and animals, and the reconstructible PIE vocabulary confirms this. There are terms for crops, farm implements, and architectural terms that probably referred to more permanent structures than tents or yurts.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:06 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:39 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:58 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:01 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:47 am 
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