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zompist bboard • View topic - Haida and Na-Dene

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:41 am 
Smeric
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:23 am 
Sanci
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Something somewhat related to all this that I've thought about at random times. Even if it's probably a coincidence, I still think it's pretty cool.

Inuktitut /inuk/ (human)
Ainu /ai̯nu/ (human)
Nivkh /ɲivx/ (human)

Based on the similarities, a common ancestor word could be reconstructed: something like [*ai̯ni̯əwk] or [*ai̯nyk].

Also,
Ket /kɛˀt/ (human)
Northern Yukaghir /køde/ (human)

Both could come from something like [*kʷʼete].

If the two reconstructions were combined at the end, the super ancient word for human could have been something like [*ai̯ni̯əwkʷʼete~ai̯nykʷʼete], but that's getting weird and kinda ridiculous.

Haida could easily be thrown into the mix, but I couldn't find anywhere what exactly the Haida word for human is; according to it's the same as their endonym, X̱aadas, but I'm not sure about its pronunciation. If Wikipedia's chart is correct, it should be /χaːd̥as/, but I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:42 am 
Smeric
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That's basically Starostin's method: combine the segments of the words from the compared languages into one long string, such that each language just has to delete some of them, and perhaps metathesize some of the remaining ones. That way, you can "prove" any relationship you want, but it has nothing to do with actual comparative linguistic work.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:40 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:34 pm 
Smeric
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Starostin's work is not considered valid by most historical linguists.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:37 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:55 am 
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Most of the lexical resemblances betwen IE and Uralic look like loanwords from PIE into Proto-Uralic. The sound correspondences are such that the Uralic words have those sounds that are closest to the IE sounds, i.e. the expected sound substitutions. This is particularly striking with the vowels, where such things as ablaut grades and laryngeal colourings are faithfully reflected in the Uralic word forms. And as ablaut and laryngeal colouring are innovations within PIE that do not predate Proto-Indo-Uralic, this hits the nail home: these words just cannot be inherited from Proto-Indo-Uralic!

Yet, the morphological resemblances are hard to explain by anything other than a common ancestor. And there are a few lexical resemblances that do not show the sound correspondences expected from loanwords, and these may be genuine cognates. However, the frequently cited 'name' word faces the difficulty that PIE *hnehmn almost certainly isn't a single root, rather a derivative from an (otherwise unknown) root *hneh-, perhaps 'to call', with the well-known suffix *-m(e)n, which makes comparison with PU nimi difficult. This may be a chance resemblance, like Japanese namae. (The initial laryngeal is uncertain; it is often reconstructed as *h, but that is rather beside the point.)

This seems to be a bit like the Armenian case, where the large number of lexical resemblances to Iranian languages, on the ground of which Armenian was classified as Iranian by early Indo-Europeanists, turned out to be loanwords, but it also turned out that some other - fewer! - words that didn't fit Iranian, and especially the morphology, are cognate to those of other IE languages by a different set of sound correspondences, and Armenian is now classified as a separate branch of IE on the ground of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Well I mean what's to say with the sound subsitutions that they could be inherited from a Proto-Indo-Uralic, but that the system underwent extreme simplification à la Tocharian? (I'm not trying to say your ideas don't have weight, I'd just like some elaboration).

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:11 pm 
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WeepingElf, you might find interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:20 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:51 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:32 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:01 am 
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Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:42 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:31 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:45 pm 
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No problem. Indo-Uralic is really cool, and I think the implosive theory of the IE stop system is the best option I've seen, and seeing them supporting each other like this is awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:53 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:30 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Last edited by Howl on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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