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zompist bboard • View topic - Haida and Na-Dene

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:09 pm 
Smeric
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Can we please all stop with the phrase "rape baby"? Rape doesn't belong in a discussion about ancient linguistic history. It's gross.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:44 am 
Sanno
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It would indeed be nice if people could tone down the disgusting, rampant misogyny, which doesn't really seem relevant to the topic.

On topic: no, Finnish is not a "Swedish-Russian creole". That's insane.
Also: no, Uralic would not be the "oldest" branch of the Indo-Uralic family, that's not how languages, branches, families or binary division work.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:32 pm 
Sumerul
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:06 pm 
Smeric
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There is no way one contemporary language can be "older" than another. When linguists say that a language was "older" than another, they mean that it was spoken in a more distant past, as in "Proto-Afroasiatic is much older than Proto-Indo-European". When non-linguists speak of "older" languages, they usually mean one or more of the following:

1. The language has a longer literary tradition, as in "Greek is older than Latin".
2. The language is more conservative, as in "Icelandic is older than English".
3. The language has been longer in its present location than others, as in "Celtic is older than English".

These three are often conflated. For instance, I more than once met the claim that Irish was an especially archaic IE language, which it patently isn't - as everyone here probably knows, Irish, like all the Insular Celtic languages, has warped quite far from the typology of PIE. Usually, the motivation for such formulations is nationalism. In order to avoid this, many linguists tend to say "deeper" instead of "older" when it comes to the time depths of language families, as in "Proto-Afroasiatic is much deeper than Proto-Indo-European".

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:51 am 
Avisaru
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I think in this instances we take "older" to mean "first branch to split off from the rest of the family", as in "Anatolian is the oldest branch of Indo-European".

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:28 am 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:05 pm 
Smeric
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I think here he's trying to juxtapose Uralic with the individual branches of IE, as if that were valid like it is for Anatolian. And it isn't valid because whatever PIU might have looked like, there was clearly a lot of independent development between it and PIE (that is, independent from the development between PIU and Uralic), while Anatolian didn't split off from PIE that long before the entire group disintegrated.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:41 am 
Sanci
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:50 am 
Sanno
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:27 am 
Sanci
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:48 am 
Sanno
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:56 am 
Sanno
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I'm going to go ahead and lock the thread at this point. If you wish to resume discussing linguistic topics, you'll find a continuation of the discussion here: .

Vlürch, if you need further explanation of why it's inappropriate to continue using offensive terms after being specifically asked not to by a moderator, please contact one of the mods directly via PM.

If anyone else has questions regarding this intervention or general questions regarding implementation of the board rules, please PM us or start a new open discussion thread in None of the Above.


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