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zompist bboard • View topic - Haida and Na-Dene

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:37 pm 
Smeric
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I'm not very familiar with South America, but that theory certainly makes sense for North America.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:32 pm 
Smeric
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Everybody wants to live in California. :mrgreen: :P


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:13 pm 
Boardlord
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:45 pm 
Avisaru
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But only the Dene-Yeniseian were hunter-gatherers! Everyone else has (or are descended from those who had) reindeer herding pastoralism. Why should that not benefit them like goat/sheep pastoralism did the Indo-Aryans & Tocharians and cattle & agriculture did the Bantu? Because if it does (and according to Vajda, for the Paleo-Siberians it did), then we should not expect to find a high level of linguistic diversity, and if we do find such a high level then Salmoneus' surprise is well-founded. (Unless we don't, by optimistically rooting for lumping hypotheses.)

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:18 am 
Boardlord
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Reindeer are not horses... I'm sure they provide more sustenance than foraging, but do they provide any military advantage?


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:47 am 
Sanci
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:55 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:16 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:25 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:38 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:47 am 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:21 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:40 pm 
Lebom
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:58 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:54 pm 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:44 am 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:19 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:20 am 
Sanno
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:05 pm 
Sanci
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:28 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:05 am 
Sumerul
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Are you aware of just how prevalent low-level warfare is amongst traditional small societies? If New Guinea seems peaceful now, that is because Westerners came in and suppressed it, in the process of extending their authority over the island.* (Historically these societies had a per-capita homicide rate that far outstripped even the worst parts of the American inner city.)

(Okay, I should note that the per capita part is important. Descriptions of traditional warfare amongst such societies make it seem like most of the time few people were killed in any given instance - except that when you take into account that many of the groups involved only numbered in the hundreds, making the per-capita fatality rates much higher, compared to, say, violent crime in the American inner city, where the populations involved are far larger. Also, it should be noted that these very often involved cycles of revenge, where one person would kill one person in another group in revenge for the previous killing of someone in their own group, and vice versa, ad infinitum - so each incident may involve only one person getting killed, unlike modern mass killings, but the total number of people killed over time may very well be larger.)

* Mind you that many New Guineans did not necessarily like this violence, so they took the establishment of outside authority over them as an excuse to stop fighting, rather than Westerners having to actually suppress it by force most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:37 am 
Avisaru
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Presumably languages can coexist peacefully even if their speakers don't. Otherwise you'd never get New Guinea.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:35 pm 
Sanno
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:33 am 
Sanno
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Curioser and curioser.

It seems the three-wave model of the Americas is wrong: there were four waves. The Dorset and Saqqaq cultures represent an additional wave. These Dorsets apparently did have admixture with the EAs... but before they reached the new world.

On a larger scale, the Dorsets and the Eskimo-Aleuts were distantly related to one another and to modern Kamchatkans. However, modern Na-Dene are more closely related to south american amerindians. Not sure if we're able to rule out amerindian substrate, though - somebody needs to test some Ket...

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:12 am 
Sanno
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Curioser and curioser.

To summarise things i've read:

- the Ket actually look the same as the Samoyed and the Yukaghir, except that they have high levels of Mal'ta.
- Na-Dene have some Mal'ta
- Saqquq don't have Mal'ta
- earlier results suggest ND were Amerindian plus a Saqquq element
- CK and EA appear completely unrelated to Ket, Samoyed and Yukaghir
- apparently (this was only in the corners of what I read and may be an artefact) Nivkh are more closely related to Han and to Dai

So, assuming DY, we could hypothesise: Dene-Yeneseians are Mal'ta descendents; Ket are Mal'ta + Siberian (Uralo-Yukaghir); Na-Dene managed to pick up Beringian (CK+EA+Dorset/Saqquq) and Amerindian genes en route?

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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