[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
zompist bboard • View topic - Haida and Na-Dene

zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:14 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 162 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:09 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Coincidentally, a new and seemingly pretty definitive paper in Science yesterday, about the amerindian population. A study of 92 samples from western south and central america (Mexico through to Chile), 8600BP to 500BP, based on mitochondria. Results:

- all related
- last contact with non-American populations was 23,000BP
- a period of isolation in a small population of maybe 10,000 people, presumably equating to being trapped in a hostile but survivable Beringian refugium surrounded by ice sheets
- around 16,000BP, a rapid explosion in population size, presumably equating to the peopling of the Americas
- rapid expansion along the coast, so fast it was probably aided by boats, taking only 1,500 years to reach southern Chile
- as new areas were reached, communities settled, and stopped having contact with one another
- the 92 samples represent 84 different linneages - communities were genetically isolated
- none of these 84 linneages correspond to any known post-colombian linneages, suggesting that the vast majority of pre-colombian diversity was wiped out

Things we can draw from this:
- long chronologies can perhaps be ruled out - no evidence of anyone surviving from before the Beringian invasions, and the speed of advance looks like people moving into an uninhabited area. Suggests that if there were any migrations to the new world before 16000BP, it was presumably in very small numbers, and they must have suffered from some major technological or biological handicaps. [The Thule replaced the Dorset quickly with very little interbreeding... but there were big technology gaps (dogs, sleds, boats, bows, etc), the Dorset habitat declined (warm period, Thule whalers took over defrosted arctic, dorset retreated with the ice (thule then redeveloped dorset behaviours to cope with the return of the ice), and there were only very small numbers of people involved anyway (a few huddled ice-hole fishers, vs the whole of the americas)]

- there is an Amerindian language family - descent from a single, homogenous interbreeding, inbred glacial population of only a few thousand people strongly implies a common ancestral language. For central and south america, at least, I suppose it's possible that north americans, particular those in the west, might perhaps have come from a rival beringian tribe. Possibly.

- 16,000BP is not out of the range of reconstruction, so a reconstructed proto-Amerindian may be a possibility. Afro-Asiatic, for instance, is around 10-18,000 years old; Nilo-Saharan seems to at least pre-date agriculture. However, 16k is clearly pushing it - even if a persuasive demonstration of a unified family is eventually produced, it's unlikely to explain everything

- also a problem: long isolation means subfamilies will be hard to demonstrate

- in particular, it suggests that it's a bad idea to expect big subfamilies on the western coast. It may only be later expansions into the west that show large families

- on the other hand, one good sign for reconstruction: isolation probably limits the amount of borrowing going on. Of course, there can be extensive linguistic contact without interbreeding... but non-interbreeding societies are much less likely to have the sort of extensive borowings that make relationships hard to adduce

- California probably wasn't unique in its plethora of families - it was probably like that all the way down the coast (except places like the Atacama), with the diversity obscured first by expansive and/or invading groups and then by European conquests and the population crash

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:53 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:37 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 364


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:13 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin
1a is possible, but I don't get why 1 couldn't happen.

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:15 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 122
Interesting. I'm completely ignorant about genetics, but this seems to fit very well with the archaeological data. Although, I am skeptical about the implications of this research for the existence of an "Amerind" family. First, a population of less than "a few tens of thousands" hunter gatherers could potentially speak several languages, even languages of different families. Second, some or ever all of the languages of the first migration could have been replaced by unrelated languages spoken by later migrants. With that being said, its definitely an intriguing hypothesis, but the linguistic evidence for Amerind seems pretty meager, even it is 16 000 years old.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:06 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:43 pm
Posts: 352
Location: Iowa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:13 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm
Posts: 821

_________________
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
– The Gospel of Thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:18 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 437
Location: Davis, CA
Yeah, while I don't think we'll ever be able to reconstruct languages as old as the original invasion of the Americas to a useful level of detail, I very much doubt that there were any significant populations of non-verbal humans at that late date. So presumably, even if we can never reconstruct the ancestor(s), all the present-day languages of the Americas descend from something that existed at the time of the invasion. The only question is whether there was a single ancestor language at that date or more than one. We might never be able to determine the answer with much confidence. Anyway, mèþru's option #1, as stated, implies that multiple language families developed from non-language during that period, which is almost certainly not true.

_________________
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:23 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin
As for #1, I was thinking that ritual conlangs like Damin or avoidance languages might have gradually complicated and replaced other speech.

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:38 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 437
Location: Davis, CA

_________________
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:49 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA
I don't get why mèþru's scenario #1 should be so unlikely. We have real-life examples of spontaneous language generation already from certain sign languages, so why couldn't it have also taken place in the Americas (and thus at least partially explain the proliferation of language families attested in the Americas today)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:56 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm
Posts: 821
So you guys' answer to language families not being demonstrably related-- when their point of common origin would, according to nonlinguistic evidence, be further in the past than is accessible by the comparative method-- is "Maybe they all independently decided to start speaking conlangs".

_________________
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
– The Gospel of Thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:01 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 437
Location: Davis, CA

_________________
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Last edited by Chengjiang on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:04 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:24 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US
My the idiocy astounds me.

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:45 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:52 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:23 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:33 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:39 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 122


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:30 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:43 pm
Posts: 352
Location: Iowa


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:34 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Also, this is why I pointed out the problem of how you define "conlang." The idea that I'm thinking of, at least, is very different from starting by learning the sort of conlang people may create on a forum such as this one.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:54 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 122


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:53 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:43 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm
Posts: 821

_________________
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
– The Gospel of Thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 162 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group